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#571370 - 07/10/18 04:22 PM hull repair, crunch time is near  
Joined: Feb 2003
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Frantically Relaxing Offline
Admiral
Frantically Relaxing  Offline
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After taking nearly 3 years to do a 2 week job, I'm working towards getting the hull wet-blasted first week of August. Coal tar epoxy is a new thing to me other than I have 'test driven' part of a gallon to see what it does with some chopped glass added, and without. I read somewhere that some of the stuff one might add chopped glass to won't like it. Coal tar is one such stuff. Just wouldn't mix evenly, and many glass strands floated out to the surface. So much for that bright idea wink

Anyway, below are the edited instructions for coal tar epoxy, help me read between the lines smile

====================================
RECOMMENDED DRY FILM: 10.0 mils

COVERAGE: Theoretical coverage of 10 mils dry [per coat] is 128 square feet per gallon. Material
losses during mixing and application will vary and must be taken into consideration.
ok, hull is 50 x 14', mostly flat for 40', forward 10' is bow rise so minus a few sq ft there, plus I'm going up the sides about a foot give or take, so just figuring 50x16 comes to 800 sq ft I'm painting. Factoring a generous(?) 18 ft per gallon 'in losses' gives me 110 sq ft per gallon... yes?

POT LIFE: 75 degrees F - 3-4 hours, lower at higher temperatures

AVERAGE DRY TIME 75°F: Dries to touch in 5-6 hours. Can recoat in 5 hours to 20
hours. Allow 5 hours minimum before recoating with antifouling.
This window is important, if I recoat too early the new coat might not stick, and if too late, I'll have to abrade the first coat..NOOOO!! I'm planning on THREE coats, with an airless sprayer. After watching a few vids of guys painting 16' x 8' walls with an airless in just a few minutes, I'm guessing I can run the boat thru a coat in 60 to 90 minutes tops... I hope-

RECOMMENDED REDUCER: Reduce with 974 Reducer as needed for proper flow
and performance, 10% maximum.
I have on hand 19 gallons of paint, and I think I'll get 3 more: 800 sq ft / 110 per gallon = 7.27 gallons per coat, so just under 22 gallons total... yes? And this means I'll need 2.2 gallons of 974 reducer. So 3 gallons to thin leaves me 3 quarts for cleanup, should I spend another $24 and get another gallon? (for the record, I don't 'clean up' after painting, anything with paint still on it goes in the trash!

RECOMMENDED CLEAN UP: 974 Reducer or Xylene

RECOMMENDED FINISH: Ablative or Epoxy Hard antifoulings

SURFACE PREPARATION:
BARE METAL: Surface should be blasted to bright metal. Remove all blast or sanding
residue using a clean air line and sweeping with a clean brush or broom. Vacuum clean
for best results. Apply primer within 1 hour of metal preparation. If blasting is not possible
(or if more than 2 hours has passed since blasting) sand or grind with coarse 36-60 grit
discs. Remove sanding dust.
Wet sanding involves them using a rust inhibitor to prevent flash rust for up to 3 days. I can also buy some my self and have the pressure washer apply it. Supposedly, you can use this stuff indefinitely to inhibit flash rust as long as you spray it every other day. Not planning on that but with my luck, I'm going to buy enough for at least one extra shot!

APPLICATION: Final Dry Thickness of 20 mils. This usually takes 2 coats, but the
amount of paint is more important than the number of coats.
So I'm going for 30 mils, that's approx 25% as thick as the steel smile

Airless Spray Pressure: 165 bar/2400 psi Tip Size: 0.44-0.53 mm/17-21 thou.
I have a new HF sprayer, I'm told HD or Lowes has the right size tips. I'm still curious how well this is going to work, because even thinned 10% this stuff will be as thick as corn syrup!

POT LIFE: 5 hours
LIMITATIONS: Do not apply if material, substrate or ambient temperature is below 50F
or above 95F. Do not put over 1 part paints.
SHELF LIFE: Minimum 36 months
INDUCTION TIME: 20-30 minutes
MIXING: Mix 4 parts 8003 Part A Base and 1 part 8003 Part B Activator by volume at
the specified ratio. Mix only as much as you can use in 2 hours. Mix small amounts until
application technique is developed.
all above duly noted smile
============================

So, does all this sound copacetic? Is 30 mils okay or too much maybe? I figure 2 coats one day, final coat(s) 2nd day. As for antifouling paint, I've read some opinions somewhere that with coal tar epoxy, the best plan is to use the boat a year before painting. I believe the reason has to do with amine blush that can occur over cured epoxy, which just driving the boat will remove. Since 'algae blush' grows like weeds on boats in our water, I think I'll take care of it (some sort of glycol/water mix is used, need to learn up) and get the bottom paint on before dunking the boat...

And then there's the fun of moving the blocks... wink


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#571371 - 07/10/18 06:29 PM Re: hull repair, crunch time is near [Re: Frantically Relaxing]  
Joined: Aug 2005
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tpenfield Offline
Admiral
tpenfield  Offline
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Cape Cod, MA
This all to keep the skippy liner afloat, right?

IIRC, a tall task to seal up that hull, but hopefully it will work out.


Regards, Ted

Formula 330SS

My Boat Web Sites
#571374 - 07/10/18 07:41 PM Re: hull repair, crunch time is near [Re: Frantically Relaxing]  
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,821
Justification Offline
Admiral
Justification  Offline
Admiral

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,821
Fruit Heights, Utah
No ideas on your project, just glad to see that you'll actually get a chance to work on the boat instead of being stuck in your basement working.


Beer makes you feel the way
You should feel without beer.
#571378 - 07/11/18 07:51 AM Re: hull repair, crunch time is near [Re: Frantically Relaxing]  
Joined: Oct 2003
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captkevin Offline
Admiral
captkevin  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,505
Chicago, IL
Have you tried a test of the sprayer to see if it will be able to work with the paint?


2004 Rinker 232
2010 Dodge Ram Crew Cab Laramie 4x4
#571382 - 07/11/18 11:50 AM Re: hull repair, crunch time is near [Re: Frantically Relaxing]  
Joined: Sep 2006
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2Suns Offline
Admiral
2Suns  Offline
Admiral

Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,114
Peoria,IL
Can you do a ‘test section’ first to see how it’s all gonna work? I suppose that would be tough to do if paying someone to blast.


By the time they had diminished from 50 to 8, the other dwarves began to suspect "Hungry.-Gary Larson
#571385 - 07/11/18 06:32 PM Re: hull repair, crunch time is near [Re: Frantically Relaxing]  
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 11,764
Frantically Relaxing Offline
Admiral
Frantically Relaxing  Offline
Admiral

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 11,764
I've sandblasted all the spots I've had to repair myself, so I know what to expect as far as blasting goes. My repairs are 1, 2 and 3 years old, they all look the same, can't find anywhere that the MarineTex has cracked or let go in any way.

I just ordered 2 sizes of tip nozzles for the paint sprayer, and I'm about to order thinner and bottom paint. I have no idea what to expect with the painting, never used an airless, but I don't expect much trouble smile


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#571386 - 07/11/18 08:08 PM Re: hull repair, crunch time is near [Re: Frantically Relaxing]  
Joined: Jun 2004
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Silverbullet Offline
Admiral
Silverbullet  Offline
Admiral

Joined: Jun 2004
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Boise, ID
All I know is that whatever I budget will be too small. Money, time, etc.


James
2002 Cobalt 226 VP 8.1GIDP
2007 Chevy 2500HD Crew Cab Duramax
1988 Suburban 3/4 Ton
2000 Subaru Forester


#571387 - 07/12/18 12:14 AM Re: hull repair, crunch time is near [Re: Frantically Relaxing]  
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 11,764
Frantically Relaxing Offline
Admiral
Frantically Relaxing  Offline
Admiral

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 11,764
Budget? Does that word exist in the realm of boating expenditures? All I know is, for 9 years the thing cost us practically nothing, and all the work I'm doing IS putting money in the bank to fix it so I'm not going to complain too much! At least, until I get the quote for sandblasting maybe wink
So far I've spent about $1000 on air compressors, sandblasters and other tools to do the job, about $200 on MarineTex, $1200 on coal tar epoxy, upcoming is sandblasting (hoping for $6k or less), $1000 for bottom paint, about $3700 for 2 new SEI outdrives, rams, anodes, install kits and a pair of new props, and $800 again for the crane to put 'er back in the water. I'd just launch it, but I can't trailer it to the launch ramp from where it is, too many trees and not enough asphalt wink --so what's that, 14 grand? Ironically, that's what we paid for the Babyliner, brand new... Still, across 9 years that's only around $1500 yearly in 'maintenance'. For a 50' boat, I can't complain...


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#571388 - 07/12/18 11:21 AM Re: hull repair, crunch time is near [Re: Frantically Relaxing]  
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 8,946
Silverbullet Offline
Admiral
Silverbullet  Offline
Admiral

Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 8,946
Boise, ID
My budget comment was mainly about time nic I think a project will take me an hour, it will take me 2. If I budget 2, it will take 3..


James
2002 Cobalt 226 VP 8.1GIDP
2007 Chevy 2500HD Crew Cab Duramax
1988 Suburban 3/4 Ton
2000 Subaru Forester


#571389 - 07/12/18 07:37 PM Re: hull repair, crunch time is near [Re: Frantically Relaxing]  
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,821
Justification Offline
Admiral
Justification  Offline
Admiral

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,821
Fruit Heights, Utah
My time budget estimates usually turn into
Double the time I think it's going to take, then go up to the next time interval.
a 1 hour job, doubled is 2 hours, but it'll take me a full day.
a 5 hour job, doubles to 10 hours which is more than a complete work day, so it's gonna take me a full week.
Any project is at least 4 trips to the Hardware/ Auto Parts house to get the right parts. At least two of those trips I need to be covered in grease or mud.... or in FRs case it's gonna be bottom paint.


Beer makes you feel the way
You should feel without beer.
#571390 - 07/12/18 09:47 PM Re: hull repair, crunch time is near [Re: Frantically Relaxing]  
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,505
captkevin Offline
Admiral
captkevin  Offline
Admiral

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Posts: 7,505
Chicago, IL
Glad to see i am not the only one who always estimates about 1/2 the time any project will take.


2004 Rinker 232
2010 Dodge Ram Crew Cab Laramie 4x4
#571391 - 07/12/18 11:12 PM Re: hull repair, crunch time is near [Re: Frantically Relaxing]  
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,857
Jack T Offline
Admiral
Jack T  Offline
Admiral

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,857
Southern California
All that talk about how much time it takes strikes a chord here too.
Before I retired, my boss frequently asked how long it would take to do something. At one time (younger) i was pretty accurate by taking how long a job would take with no interruptions, multiplied by 2.5 and adding another 20%.[


Have a great day of boating
2012 Monterey 224 FS,
300 HP Volvo Penta with catalytic converters

#571393 - 07/13/18 12:21 PM Re: hull repair, crunch time is near [Re: Frantically Relaxing]  
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 11,764
Frantically Relaxing Offline
Admiral
Frantically Relaxing  Offline
Admiral

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 11,764
My favorite line from The Money Pit:

"2 Weeks"

wink


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#571403 - 07/14/18 12:56 PM Re: hull repair, crunch time is near [Re: Frantically Relaxing]  
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,378
WayWeGo Offline
Admiral
WayWeGo  Offline
Admiral

Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,378
Oakton, VA
I used to do a lot of scheduling for work. 3X was about right for how long a project would actually take compared to a best case estimate. I told my boss 4X, told the workers I would generously give them double the time they told me they could do it in and we almost always came in around 3X. Everyone was happy other than my boss when I gave the original 4X schedule, but that was quickly forgotten when we came in ahead of schedule EVERY time.



1975 Trojan F36 Convertible, Twin Chrysler 440's
2014 West Marine AL360 Inflatable, 1966 Mercury 6HP, 1992 Mercury 20HP
#571404 - 07/14/18 02:52 PM Re: hull repair, crunch time is near [Re: Frantically Relaxing]  
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,821
Justification Offline
Admiral
Justification  Offline
Admiral

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,821
Fruit Heights, Utah
Originally Posted by Frantically Relaxing
My favorite line from The Money Pit:

"2 Weeks"

wink



Beer makes you feel the way
You should feel without beer.
#571541 - 08/06/18 12:04 AM Re: hull repair, crunch time is near [Re: Frantically Relaxing]  
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 11,764
Frantically Relaxing Offline
Admiral
Frantically Relaxing  Offline
Admiral

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 11,764
So-- today's word, is 'chickenshit'...

I attempted to contact the 3 'wet' sandblasting companies within 100 miles or so. One of the them called me back. Once. I guess the word "houseboat" strikes fear into the hearts of sandblasters. The one guy I DID talk to groaned more than a 200 year old plywood staircase. Questions like "does it HAVE to be blasted all the way to bare metal?" and "how far off the ground is the boat?" didn't bode well. I was told the boat may need to be raised to accommodate the blasting equipment. Yeah, well, then you shouldn't post up video's OF the equipment in use on other stuff, because based on those video's, while it won't be the most pleasant blasting experience, there IS enough room for the hose & nozzle setup. Of course I didn't tell him that wink -- but I did tell him I could raise the boat if needed, just need to buy a couple dozen more railroad ties. And I told him I'd email him pics of the boat as it sits, which I did.

--and since then, crickets. And since I'm not one to beg, I'm not calling or emailing any of them again. If they won't even bother trying to shoo me away with pseudo-meaningful excuses or ridiculous price quotes, then fine.

So I guess I'll be finishing up the bottom by myself.

Took last week off, first vacation in 3 years. Spent last weekend in Lava Hot Springs, just kicking back. Then spent Sunday and Monday catching up on work, then went to the harbor Tuesday. Connected up my extension cords and air lines, then unearthed all my grinders and sanders and goggles and respirators and blasting stuff from under the tarps under the boat, then laid down on my back, had a look up, and assessed the situation...

Holy Crap, Heavy Sigh...

About 35 to 40% of the bottom MUST be taken to bare metal to fix the rusted/pitted areas. The remainder, after spending 4 years underwater and now 3 years on the hard, is still pristine, only needing a good abrading before recoating with coal tar epoxy. Now, right after pulling the boat 38 months ago (sheesh), I fixed a few holes in various places around the lower sides, sanded around them a bit, then painted on a layer of coal tar. Early last week I tested all those places; banged on them, took a screwdriver to them, took the angle grinder to them, trying to find ANY place the coal tar didn't stick. And after 3 full summer/winter cycles in direct sunlight on both sides, I found NO where that the coal tar was failing whatsoever smile -- All I can say is, that stuff is amazing.

The bottom paint I've used is Petit's 'Unepoxy', which is, according to Petit, 'a durable, hard modified epoxy antifoulant', and being an epoxy paint makes it compatible for overcoating with coal tar epoxy (according to coal tar makers)... Therefore, based on paint-makers recommendations and 38 months of my own testing, I feel confident I'll be okay overcoating the abraded 'pristine' areas with fresh coal tar. But I got a lot of work to do before that happens!

So the new plan, is fix the bad, don't fix what ain't broke, then cover it all with 20 gallons of coal tar laugh

Last week I spent 5 days working down the middle where rust is most prominant, and actually made quite a bit of headway. I'm using hard-backed 36 grit sanding/grinding pads in the angle grinder to cut thru the initial rust and down to the metal- followed by 36 grit sandpaper 'flap disks' to remove and feather the paint out beyond the pitting. To reduce wear on the grinding pads I have a needle-scaler to knock off heavy flaking rust. I finish the area by sandblasting all the rust out of the pits. Deep pits I'm filling with Marine Tex. Then I sprayed on and brushed in some phosphoric acid metal prep on all the bare metal. The stuff I got from HD is pretty good, it went on quite thick-ish and dried semi-tacky- it should keep flash rust in check until I'm ready to powerwash the excess off and get an initial coat of coal tar rolled on... which I would've done, but my week off ran out...

It's a daunting task to be sure, but at least I ain't no chickenshit... grin

If I can get a certain nephew and some offspring to come out and help on 2 or 3 saturdays, I may get this thing done this season yet!





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#571542 - 08/06/18 05:30 AM Re: hull repair, crunch time is near [Re: Frantically Relaxing]  
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,821
Justification Offline
Admiral
Justification  Offline
Admiral

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,821
Fruit Heights, Utah
i would say the real word of the day is HoLeeSHeet.
Glad you finally got a chance to really relax for a few days before jumping back into the Frantically portion
Pics posted later I'll assume.


Beer makes you feel the way
You should feel without beer.
#571548 - 08/07/18 02:17 PM Re: hull repair, crunch time is near [Re: captkevin]  
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 15,174
GoFirstClass Online content
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GoFirstClass  Online Content
Retired Boating Bum
Grand Poobah

Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 15,174
Pasco, WA
Originally Posted by captkevin
Glad to see i am not the only one who always estimates about 1/2 the time any project will take.


And for me, if I'm planning a project I KNOW it will involve at least 3-4 trips to Lowe's for more "stuff" that I thought I had but realized:
The glue had dried in the container
The sandpaper I have is too fine/course/not the right kind
The paint I planned to use as an unbreakable layer of dried paint on top.
You get the picture.

On a brighter note, I recently figured out that Lowe's gives a 10% discount to veterans and active duty military. I got my Lowe's card the other day and used it for my discount. Thanks Mr. Lowe's.


"Beachcomber" 1995 Sea Ray 550 Sedan Bridge


Anchor's down......Bottoms Up!

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