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#570813 - 05/04/18 06:01 PM Re: Can I run engine with exhaust apart at elbows [Re: Silverbullet]  
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Frantically Relaxing Offline
Admiral
Frantically Relaxing  Offline
Admiral

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Originally Posted by Silverbullet
...I have a laser thermometer and have used it. I believe, if I remember correctly, that the added heat starts at the heads...

I have not pulled the engine water pump. Not that it wouldn't be a valuable exercise, but 90% of the raw water that comes in is diverted to the exhaust manifolds. If I pull it, I'll replace it.


Okay then, If the added heat starts at the heads, that's engine block water... and it seems to me then that ANY % of water diverted to the exhaust manifolds never sees the block, and therefore has nothing to do with the overheat issue, yes? (no?)



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#570820 - 05/06/18 05:52 PM Re: Can I run engine with exhaust apart at elbows [Re: Silverbullet]  
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Silverbullet Offline
Admiral
Silverbullet  Offline
Admiral

Joined: Jun 2004
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Boise, ID
Ok, so ran it today with the rear hoses. It is very telling. It was interesting to see just a little trickle of water going through the main block hoses until it heated up. It's a little unsettling.

The heads are the same temp. I tested around each spark plug hole and the head bolts towards the front and rear. All were right around 160. At idle, it appears there is very little if any water flowing to the port manifold. At 1000rpm it flows better, but it is not great. If I could post a video to show the water flow you would be able to see it.

It might be worth it to pull the thermostat housing to see if there is anything that might be blocking the hole to that hose.

The engine water pump is noisy. While it appears to be flowing I think it needs to be on my list of things to get done, either now or later. I hate to think what the shop will charge me for it, but I want to be able to enjoy the boat.

I still plan to have the leakdown test done by the shop. If nothing else, I should know if anything else is going on from that perspective. I have a list of some other things they can look at for me too. Might as well rip the bandaid off.


James
2002 Cobalt 226 VP 8.1GIDP
2007 Chevy 2500HD Crew Cab Duramax
1988 Suburban 3/4 Ton
2000 Subaru Forester


#570821 - 05/06/18 08:16 PM Re: Can I run engine with exhaust apart at elbows [Re: Silverbullet]  
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Dave R Offline
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Dave R  Offline
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Raymond NH
I would skip the leak down test. Seems you already found your smoking gun with the reduced flow to the port manifold. Gotta be an issue with the termostat housing or the raw water pump/supply. The circulation pump does not provide flow to the manifolds, that water comes from the sea water pump.


"Mischief Managed"
2000 Regal 2550 LSC
7.4 MPI Bravo 3
#570823 - 05/06/18 09:38 PM Re: Can I run engine with exhaust apart at elbows [Re: Silverbullet]  
Joined: Jun 2004
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Silverbullet Offline
Admiral
Silverbullet  Offline
Admiral

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Boise, ID
I pulled the thermostat housing to check everything out and all the openings look fine. If I had a new thermostat I would have put it in for giggles. It was interesting to see that the water comes in on top of the thermostat and gets split between the recirc system and the manifolds so even with a bad thermostat, I don't think it would cause the issue

I pulled the hose to the port side top and bottom and flushed the manifold out with water. Put it back together and the same. I can force more water through the port side by kinking the starboard hose. I am 99% convinced it is a flow issue. The question is, why? I guess the raw water pump could be the issue. I rebuilt it a few years back due to a drip. Perhaps it just isn't forcing enough water through. I did not change the impeller today. That may be next weekend.


James
2002 Cobalt 226 VP 8.1GIDP
2007 Chevy 2500HD Crew Cab Duramax
1988 Suburban 3/4 Ton
2000 Subaru Forester


#570826 - 05/07/18 05:25 AM Re: Can I run engine with exhaust apart at elbows [Re: Silverbullet]  
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Dave R Offline
Admiral
Dave R  Offline
Admiral

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Raymond NH
Originally Posted by Silverbullet
I pulled the thermostat housing to check everything out and all the openings look fine. If I had a new thermostat I would have put it in for giggles. It was interesting to see that the water comes in on top of the thermostat and gets split between the recirc system and the manifolds so even with a bad thermostat, I don't think it would cause the issue

I pulled the hose to the port side top and bottom and flushed the manifold out with water. Put it back together and the same. I can force more water through the port side by kinking the starboard hose. I am 99% convinced it is a flow issue. The question is, why? I guess the raw water pump could be the issue. I rebuilt it a few years back due to a drip. Perhaps it just isn't forcing enough water through. I did not change the impeller today. That may be next weekend.

My experience with VP crank mounted raw water pumps has been not so great. They seem to just wear out after a few years and rebuilds don't last. As they age, they are also pickier about impellers. I worked on one that would not pump water well with a Sierra impeller, but worked fine with an OEM VP impeller. If you decide to replace the impeller, a VP part would be my recommendation.


"Mischief Managed"
2000 Regal 2550 LSC
7.4 MPI Bravo 3
#570828 - 05/07/18 07:22 AM Re: Can I run engine with exhaust apart at elbows [Re: Dave R]  
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Silverbullet Offline
Admiral
Silverbullet  Offline
Admiral

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Boise, ID
Originally Posted by Dave R
[quote=Silverbullet]My experience with VP crank mounted raw water pumps has been not so great. They seem to just wear out after a few years and rebuilds don't last. As they age, they are also pickier about impellers. I worked on one that would not pump water well with a Sierra impeller, but worked fine with an OEM VP impeller. If you decide to replace the impeller, a VP part would be my recommendation.


It has a VP impeller in it now. I figured out a while ago who makes the pumps for volvo penta. Maybe I'll buy one direct from them to save some $$.


James
2002 Cobalt 226 VP 8.1GIDP
2007 Chevy 2500HD Crew Cab Duramax
1988 Suburban 3/4 Ton
2000 Subaru Forester


#570833 - 05/07/18 12:53 PM Re: Can I run engine with exhaust apart at elbows [Re: Silverbullet]  
Joined: Oct 2003
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captkevin Offline
Admiral
captkevin  Offline
Admiral

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Posts: 7,510
Chicago, IL
Aren't the VP ones made by Jabsco?


2004 Rinker 232
2010 Dodge Ram Crew Cab Laramie 4x4
#570834 - 05/07/18 01:42 PM Re: Can I run engine with exhaust apart at elbows [Re: Silverbullet]  
Joined: Jan 2003
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Jack T Offline
Admiral
Jack T  Offline
Admiral

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Posts: 3,859
Southern California
"I figured out a while ago who makes the pumps for volvo penta."

Sometime in the last two years, I figured out that at least some of the VP impellers are made by SPX Johnson Pump. Looking deeper into their website, you will find more info than you thought would be possible, just for water pumps and impellers.

Here's their marine webpage:
http://www.spxflow.com/en/johnson-pump/pc-marine/

Guess where SPX is located? The following from the back page of their Flexible Impeller Pumps pdf document off their website:

SPX FLOW TECHNOLOGY SWEDEN AB
Nastagatan 19, P.O. Box 1436
SE-701 14 Örebro, Sweden
P: +46 (0)19 21 83 00
F: +46 (0)19 27 23 72
E: johnson-pump.marine@spx.com

Yet, on their Impeller Replacement Kits catalog is this statement:

Based in Charlotte, North Carolina, SPX
FLOW (NYSE: FLOW) is a multi-industry
manufacturing company with operations in
more than 35 markets worldwide.

Customer Service Contact:
US +1 847 671-7867
jp-customerservice@spxflow.com

Here's a link to their SP Impeller Identification Guide
http://www.spxflow.com/en/assets/pdf/JP-507_SP-Impellerguide%20R03%20web.pdf

Impeller Replacement Kits catalog that cross-references SHERWOOD / MERCRUISER / JABSCO
http://www.spxflow.com/en/assets/pdf/JP-impellers_810_US_Letter_2018-03.pdf


Have a great day of boating
2012 Monterey 224 FS,
300 HP Volvo Penta with catalytic converters

#570835 - 05/07/18 03:37 PM Re: Can I run engine with exhaust apart at elbows [Re: Silverbullet]  
Joined: Jun 2004
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Silverbullet Offline
Admiral
Silverbullet  Offline
Admiral

Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 8,946
Boise, ID
I found a source for the vp pumps for $325 and I can sell my old pump for $40. I'm heavily considering putting a new pulp on and if it fixes it, selling the old one. If it doesn't. I'll just put the old one back on and keep the new one for when I need it down the road.

At home I have the schematics for the pumps from years past made by whoever made them. It's where 8 got seal and bearing details to rebuild the pump a few years ago.


James
2002 Cobalt 226 VP 8.1GIDP
2007 Chevy 2500HD Crew Cab Duramax
1988 Suburban 3/4 Ton
2000 Subaru Forester


#570836 - 05/07/18 05:10 PM Re: Can I run engine with exhaust apart at elbows [Re: Silverbullet]  
Joined: Oct 2003
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captkevin Offline
Admiral
captkevin  Offline
Admiral

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Chicago, IL
Changing out the pump is a good idea. They are brass & the inside wears out. Depending what type of water it is in can have great effect on how fast it wears out. On our old boat I couldn't get it to stop leaking. Brought the pump with me to the shop & they took one look at it & said it was done. Bought new pump & no more issues.


2004 Rinker 232
2010 Dodge Ram Crew Cab Laramie 4x4
#570839 - 05/07/18 10:47 PM Re: Can I run engine with exhaust apart at elbows [Re: Silverbullet]  
Joined: Jun 2004
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Silverbullet Offline
Admiral
Silverbullet  Offline
Admiral

Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 8,946
Boise, ID
I went ahead and ordered it.

The boat was used on finger lakes and around Seattle before I bought her from finger lakes boater. I know they can wear and am ok spending the money as it will eventually need it.

Last edited by Silverbullet; 05/08/18 06:37 AM.

James
2002 Cobalt 226 VP 8.1GIDP
2007 Chevy 2500HD Crew Cab Duramax
1988 Suburban 3/4 Ton
2000 Subaru Forester


#570884 - 05/13/18 07:42 PM Re: Can I run engine with exhaust apart at elbows [Re: Silverbullet]  
Joined: Jun 2004
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Silverbullet Offline
Admiral
Silverbullet  Offline
Admiral

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Posts: 8,946
Boise, ID
And, it was fixed........

For about 2 minutes.

Pulled the hoses to the oil cooler and felt in the inlet side and felt a piece of rubber. Not big, but there. Backflushed the cooker and it came out. Didn't see it before it disappeared. That's a start. Still temp issues. Replaced the raw water pump and for a few minutes, it was running much cooler. Then, the temps rose.

Not much closer today, but at least I eliminated the water pump and got some rubber out. Still dont know why the port side is flowing slower. Going to pull the hose from the thermostat housing to the riser and put my scope down it looking for a collapsed section. I'll also pull the new pump back off and put it away for when I need it. That was a $300 swing. At least its useful to have on hand.


James
2002 Cobalt 226 VP 8.1GIDP
2007 Chevy 2500HD Crew Cab Duramax
1988 Suburban 3/4 Ton
2000 Subaru Forester


#570925 - 05/18/18 11:27 PM Re: Can I run engine with exhaust apart at elbows [Re: Silverbullet]  
Joined: Jun 2004
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Silverbullet Offline
Admiral
Silverbullet  Offline
Admiral

Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 8,946
Boise, ID
Well, the boat went to the shop today to have them do the co.pression and leakdown test. It likely won't show anything, but it'll give me baselines and peace of mind. They are also taking a look at a few of my other gripes. More valuable than that was shooting the breeze with the lead tech/shop manager. We talked a bit about my concerns and he shared his thoughts. He also gave me some ideas on how I could approach things like water flow, etc.

It's not done yet as they got busy and I was in no hurry. But, tomorrow I'll pick it up and then try a couple more things including swapping the sides the manifolds get water from at the thermostat, changing the power steering fluid, and flushing the power steering cooler. I also plan on removing the nipples from the manifolds to give more room to get stuff out.

He said the engine sounded good and confirmed the 15w50 is fine for oil. We talked about upgrading the motor someday yo make it a gxi as well.

I may just have to plug my ears and go enjoy it.


James
2002 Cobalt 226 VP 8.1GIDP
2007 Chevy 2500HD Crew Cab Duramax
1988 Suburban 3/4 Ton
2000 Subaru Forester


#570937 - 05/20/18 09:49 PM Re: Can I run engine with exhaust apart at elbows [Re: Silverbullet]  
Joined: Jun 2004
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Silverbullet Offline
Admiral
Silverbullet  Offline
Admiral

Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 8,946
Boise, ID
Of course they didn't do the one test I wanted them to. They did a compression check and when it all came back ok they didn't go further. I didn't need a compression test. I already did one and wouldn't pay $180 for it. They ended up keeping the boat for a 3rd day when it was supposed to be done on Friday. The timing doesn't bother me. If they make it right, I'll be fine with it and chalk it up to someone not listening to the customer.

I did get a good idea to get a water meter and put in line to measure the flow on each side. Since it won't be a permanent fixture I'll use one that works on a garden hose.


James
2002 Cobalt 226 VP 8.1GIDP
2007 Chevy 2500HD Crew Cab Duramax
1988 Suburban 3/4 Ton
2000 Subaru Forester


#570962 - 05/22/18 05:02 PM Re: Can I run engine with exhaust apart at elbows [Re: Silverbullet]  
Joined: Jun 2004
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Silverbullet Offline
Admiral
Silverbullet  Offline
Admiral

Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 8,946
Boise, ID
Just an update on this. The shop did the work for the agreed price. I heard from the service manager yesterday and we talked through the results. 5 of the cylinders are all in the 5% range. 2 are in the low teens and 1 is a bit higher. All 3 cylinders have blow by at the rings. It confirmed that there is no issue with the head gasket or valves. I could put rings in it, but that isn't advised. When this engine gets opened it will get overhauled and turned into a gxi.

A few final tests to try this weekend then I'll just have to live with it.

Swap the hoses to see if the heat follows the hoses.
Put flow meters into each hose to accurately measure the water flow.
Scope the hoses looking for any defects
Scope the manifolds forms the drain plugs to see if I can find anything.


James
2002 Cobalt 226 VP 8.1GIDP
2007 Chevy 2500HD Crew Cab Duramax
1988 Suburban 3/4 Ton
2000 Subaru Forester


#570963 - 05/22/18 05:51 PM Re: Can I run engine with exhaust apart at elbows [Re: Silverbullet]  
Joined: Apr 2006
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kdl Offline
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kdl  Offline
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Central Mass
James, how many hours on your engine?


2005 Cobalt 246 8.1 Gi
"Paradise..."

2001 Key Largo 190 CC
"After Five"
#570965 - 05/22/18 09:06 PM Re: Can I run engine with exhaust apart at elbows [Re: Silverbullet]  
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 8,946
Silverbullet Offline
Admiral
Silverbullet  Offline
Admiral

Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 8,946
Boise, ID
450.


James
2002 Cobalt 226 VP 8.1GIDP
2007 Chevy 2500HD Crew Cab Duramax
1988 Suburban 3/4 Ton
2000 Subaru Forester


#570968 - 05/23/18 12:44 AM Re: Can I run engine with exhaust apart at elbows [Re: Silverbullet]  
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,859
Jack T Offline
Admiral
Jack T  Offline
Admiral

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,859
Southern California
OK. is 450 hours really that high for this engine? When we sold our second boat with over 800 hours, it was still within specs. It was an OMC V6 stringer mount outdrive.


Have a great day of boating
2012 Monterey 224 FS,
300 HP Volvo Penta with catalytic converters

#570970 - 05/23/18 04:26 AM Re: Can I run engine with exhaust apart at elbows [Re: Silverbullet]  
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,344
tpenfield Offline
Admiral
tpenfield  Offline
Admiral

Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,344
Cape Cod, MA
Originally Posted by Silverbullet
Just an update on this. The shop did the work for the agreed price. I heard from the service manager yesterday and we talked through the results. 5 of the cylinders are all in the 5% range. 2 are in the low teens and 1 is a bit higher. All 3 cylinders have blow by at the rings. It confirmed that there is no issue with the head gasket or valves. I could put rings in it, but that isn't advised. When this engine gets opened it will get overhauled and turned into a gxi.

A few final tests to try this weekend then I'll just have to live with it.

Swap the hoses to see if the heat follows the hoses.
Put flow meters into each hose to accurately measure the water flow.
Scope the hoses looking for any defects
Scope the manifolds forms the drain plugs to see if I can find anything.


Did you get the actual compression and leak numbers? Those are helpful to see. Is the 5% and other ranges the leak test results?

In general, I'd find the cooling flow issue and be done with it.


Regards, Ted

Formula 330SS

My Boat Web Sites
#570972 - 05/23/18 07:05 AM Re: Can I run engine with exhaust apart at elbows [Re: tpenfield]  
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 8,946
Silverbullet Offline
Admiral
Silverbullet  Offline
Admiral

Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 8,946
Boise, ID
Originally Posted by tpenfield
Originally Posted by Silverbullet
Just an update on this. The shop did the work for the agreed price. I heard from the service manager yesterday and we talked through the results. 5 of the cylinders are all in the 5% range. 2 are in the low teens and 1 is a bit higher. All 3 cylinders have blow by at the rings. It confirmed that there is no issue with the head gasket or valves. I could put rings in it, but that isn't advised. When this engine gets opened it will get overhauled and turned into a gxi.

A few final tests to try this weekend then I'll just have to live with it.

Swap the hoses to see if the heat follows the hoses.
Put flow meters into each hose to accurately measure the water flow.
Scope the hoses looking for any defects
Scope the manifolds forms the drain plugs to see if I can find anything.


Did you get the actual compression and leak numbers? Those are helpful to see. Is the 5% and other ranges the leak test results?

In general, I'd find the cooling flow issue and be done with it.

Yep. I have the compression numbers and leak down numbers for each cylinder. They'll go into the file for later reference.


James
2002 Cobalt 226 VP 8.1GIDP
2007 Chevy 2500HD Crew Cab Duramax
1988 Suburban 3/4 Ton
2000 Subaru Forester


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