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#570354 - 02/20/18 12:00 AM "What is wrong" was asked........  
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A thread from another boating forum a couple of days ago asked "What is wrong" with our country. Why are we having so many mass shootings, and why in schools?

Let me preface my remarks by saying this: I'm a gun owner and have been for 50 some years. I've shot in pistol competitions, am a retired cop, gunsmith and am an NRA Life Member. I own several handguns, a couple of shotguns and rifles including an AR-15. I have a LEOSA card (google it) which allows me to legally carry a gun in all 50 states though I seldom carry a concealed weapon.

The recent spate of mass shootings, especially in the schools, has caused me to think about an answer to the "What is wrong" question.

A couple of days ago a Florida teacher who was named Teacher Of The Year posted on Facebook a lengthy message that I believe provides an answer to that question as well as any other article or posting I have read.

Here is the guts of what she posted. I'll provide a link below so you can read the entire posting. I think it's worth the few minutes it would take to read it and the hours you might spend thinking about what Kelly Guthrie Raley wrote:

“Until we, as a country, are willing to get serious and talk about mental health issues, lack of available care for the mental health issues, lack of discipline in the home, horrendous lack of parental support when the schools are trying to control horrible behavior at school (oh no! Not MY KID. What did YOU do to cause my kid to react that way?), lack of moral values, and yes, I’ll say it – violent video games that take away all sensitivity to ANY compassion for others’ lives – as well as reality TV that makes it commonplace for people to constantly scream up in each others’ faces and not value any other person but themselves, we will have a gun problem in school,”

Here's the link to the article:
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/02/1...ce-post-goes-viral-after-school-shooting.html

What say you?


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#570356 - 02/20/18 10:58 AM Re: "What is wrong" was asked........ [Re: GoFirstClass]  
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wasjr Offline
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I agree wholeheartedly with that thought.

Link did not work for me. Sent to Fox error page.


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#570357 - 02/20/18 11:35 AM Re: "What is wrong" was asked........ [Re: GoFirstClass]  
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Dock Holiday Offline
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I agree as well. Additionally, I get aggravated by the numbskulls (politicians, media, and activists) who talk about gun control, but yet know nothing about the topic. I keep hearing rhetoric about banning "assault weapons" and "automatic weapons". Funny thing is, there is no definition for assault weapon, and automatic weapons have always been banned. Our brilliant leaders have in the past created laws that ban guns solely based on the look of the gun. This simply makes it appear to the uninformed constituents that they have done something, when in fact, they have done nothing except waste more tax payer money. If we are going to discuss gun control, then I would like us to at least use valid terminology and create laws that actually accomplish something.

Here is a nice article on the topic: Truth About Assault Weapons

FWIW, I do not own any firearms or belong to any organizations that are for or against firearms. I am just a citizen who is tired of the politics.


Last edited by Dock Holiday; 02/20/18 11:37 AM.
#570358 - 02/20/18 11:49 AM Re: "What is wrong" was asked........ [Re: GoFirstClass]  
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Think the mental health aspect is a much bigger concern that has been kicked to the curb. Anyone who applies for a foid card should have to go thru a mandatory screening to determine mental health. Raise the cost of the foid card. If you want the privilege you should be ok with paying for it. For the record i have a foid card & would have no problem of going through a bigger initial screening process & background check.


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#570359 - 02/20/18 12:11 PM Re: "What is wrong" was asked........ [Re: GoFirstClass]  
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Re gun control, there was an article a couple of days ago about South Korea and how few homicides there are, about the strictness of their gun laws, and how a school shooting would probably never occur there. For example guns for hunting or target practice must be registered and kept at the local police station to be checked out for use. S. Korea has fewer guns per capita than any developed nation. What was curiously (not really) absent from the story was what other citizens' rights are restricted in the country.


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#570360 - 02/20/18 03:51 PM Re: "What is wrong" was asked........ [Re: GoFirstClass]  
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Biggest problem isn't the 99% of people that follow the rules - its is the 1% that doesn't. How do you fix that?


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#570361 - 02/20/18 10:50 PM Re: "What is wrong" was asked........ [Re: GoFirstClass]  
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Kevin, I think part of that problem you identified could be dealt with if the existing gun control laws on the books were enforced as they were intended when they were written.

Most states have "weapons enhancements" laws. They were written to add additional jail time to the time the bad guy was sentenced to when convicted of the crime. Supposedly they were "automatic", not able to be ignored. But what has happened is the weapons enhancement laws are dealt away during the "let's make a deal" negotiations where sentences are reduced as an inducement to plead guilty to a lesser charge rather than go to trial.


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#570362 - 02/21/18 12:47 AM Re: "What is wrong" was asked........ [Re: captkevin]  
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kenhdog Offline
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Originally Posted by captkevin
Think the mental health aspect is a much bigger concern that has been kicked to the curb. Anyone who applies for a foid card should have to go thru a mandatory screening to determine mental health. Raise the cost of the foid card. If you want the privilege you should be ok with paying for it. For the record i have a foid card & would have no problem of going through a bigger initial screening process & background check.


I think this is part of the rhetorical question those of us who understand and appreciate both sides ask.

Why are even (arguably) reasonable laws opposed by the lobby/hobbyists, like not allowing mental folks to purchase high capacity/high volume guns (tantamount to bombs)?


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#570363 - 02/21/18 02:43 AM Re: "What is wrong" was asked........ [Re: GoFirstClass]  
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KCook Offline
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What I say is that mental health issues are an important aspect of what is wrong. But ONLY ONE aspect. In what is a complex situation. Of course you can get votes only with bumper sticker bait. Which never lends itself to complex problems.

Kelly
(ex-NRA member)

#570364 - 02/21/18 06:36 AM Re: "What is wrong" was asked........ [Re: GoFirstClass]  
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tpenfield Offline
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It is interesting to think that the children of our country will eventually solve a problem that the adults have not been able to.

Last edited by tpenfield; 02/21/18 06:39 AM.

Regards, Ted

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#570366 - 02/21/18 05:11 PM Re: "What is wrong" was asked........ [Re: GoFirstClass]  
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We do this for getting drivers licenses, is this really too much to ask?
==============

Anyone operating in possession of a motor vehicle firearm in the U.S. is required to have a valid driver’s license firearms permit.

Getting your driver’s license firearms permit involves multiple steps taken over the course of a few months. The first step is to determine your eligibility and gather proper documentation. First, you must meet your state’s legal driving firearms ownership age, which is between 14 and 17 years old depending on the state you live in. New drivers firearms owners over the age of 18 are often subject to less requirements when obtaining a driver’s license firearms owners permit. This may mean less driver’s firearms safety education is required or less time required before obtaining a firearms ownership permit.

To be eligible, you must also supply documentation including your social security number, proof of identity and permanent address [and recent medical records].

Once your documents are in order you can take a written test to get your learner’s probationary firearms permit. Once you have the [probationary] permit, you will be required to hold the permit for a minimum amount of months [3?] and practice driving gun and shooting safety for a specified amount of hours before getting your license. You are only allowed to drive shoot a gun with a licensed driver riding in the front passenger’s seat firearms permit holder during this time.

Once you’ve fulfilled the practice probationary requirements, you can take your behind-the-wheel driving target range shooting test to get your license firearms permit. If you do not pass the written or behind-the-wheel target range shooting test on your first try, you will be asked to wait a certain amount of time before retaking the test. Once you do pass, you’re ready to get on the road! legally own firearms!


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#570367 - 02/21/18 11:57 PM Re: "What is wrong" was asked........ [Re: GoFirstClass]  
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Grand Poobah

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FR, the biggest "error' in your line of thinking is that a driver's license is not guaranteed in the Bill of Rights. I don't need to repeat the Second Amendment here, I'm sure you can find it if you're not familiar with it.

Blaming guns for these mass shootings is like blaming the vehicle for drunk driving deaths, or the spoon and fork for obesity. It's not the gun, it's the person behind the trigger. I've had guns in my home for many years. None of them has gone out and killed anyone yet. They are not to blame.

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What we need is more open and consistent reporting of people who have been committed to a mental health facility, and more doctors and mental health professionals willing to report people they treat who, in their professional opinions, represent a danger to others.


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#570368 - 02/22/18 12:05 AM Re: "What is wrong" was asked........ [Re: GoFirstClass]  
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FR, in a response to this same question posed on another thread, a Canadian member of that thread posted this in response to my question about what Canadians have to go through to buy a firearm. Here's what he wrote:

"In order to legally purchase a rifle or non-restricted firearm, it’s fairly simple but not nearly as easy as in the US. You have to go through a gun safety course and apply for a firearm ownership license. Once approved, you can go to a gun store, show you are licensed to own a firearm, and purchase. Handguns and even AR-15’s are legal to own here, but are restricted weapons and much more difficult to come by. There are extensive background checks through the RCMP (and in my case FBI clearance as well) and you must divulge any info concerning whether you have sought or are seeking any sort of counseling or mental health ‘help’. Doctor’s clearances are also required. If you don’t divulge this info, they will find out. If you do have any history of seeing anyone in the psychology field, you are required to undergo mental evaluations with a doctor appointed by the Crown for the service. In addition you can bet social media accounts among many other things are looked at before anyone is issued a license to own a restricted firearm like a handgun or an AR-15. Someone like you or me would not have an issue getting a license to own these weapons. I myself own a .357, 9mm, and a .38. I also have a rifle. I just had to go through the process. That said, there is no way that kid in Florida could have ever purchased an AR-15 legally in Canada. Concealed weapons permits are pretty much unheard of here as you really need to prove you would need that for your job. "

I would not be opposed to this type of procedure.


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#570369 - 02/22/18 01:01 AM Re: "What is wrong" was asked........ [Re: GoFirstClass]  
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Jack T Offline
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"What we need is more open and consistent reporting of people who have been committed to a mental health facility........"

If a state has closed a majority of the mental hospitals/institutions as California has, or doesn't have such facilities, it is pretty hard to commit someone to a mental health facility.

Oh, yea. I forgot to mention that California has many mental health facilities, two of which are Los Angeles and San Francisco. They call them homeless camps. Every day, we hear more about the "problem" of the homeless camps, and it is amazing how much money is spent toward housing, porta potties, portable showers, etc.

I know, not all homeless people have mental conditions, but there a lot in the camps.

Yesterday, I had an opportunity to tour the county sheriff's receive and release facility. One-third of the men's jail was dedicated to the mentally ill. If only we had a better place to have them live.


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#570370 - 02/22/18 03:08 AM Re: "What is wrong" was asked........ [Re: Jack T]  
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Originally Posted by Jack T
"What we need is more open and consistent reporting of people who have been committed to a mental health facility........"

If a state has closed a majority of the mental hospitals/institutions as California has, or doesn't have such facilities, it is pretty hard to commit someone to a mental health facility.

Oh, yea. I forgot to mention that California has many mental health facilities, two of which are Los Angeles and San Francisco. They call them homeless camps. Every day, we hear more about the "problem" of the homeless camps, and it is amazing how much money is spent toward housing, porta potties, portable showers, etc.

I know, not all homeless people have mental conditions, but there a lot in the camps.

Yesterday, I had an opportunity to tour the county sheriff's receive and release facility. One-third of the men's jail was dedicated to the mentally ill. If only we had a better place to have them live.

Yup. The mental health situation is very misunderstood by many Americans, if not most.

#570371 - 02/22/18 01:20 PM Re: "What is wrong" was asked........ [Re: GoFirstClass]  
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Just to add further comment to my prior post . . .

I am of the belief that guns don’t kill people, but rather, people kill people. Guns make it easy to do so. That’s why guns were invented.

Metal health, as mentioned in this thread, or perhaps the more broader term of ‘mental fitness’, is at the core of the issue. Establishing a criterion for mental fitness, and evaluating individual’s 'fitness' in terms of lethal weapon possession, can run deep. A person’s mental fitness would certainly be subject to change during their life.

The problem, that has yet to be solved, is how to separate people who may not be ‘mentally fit’ to own guns from having access to and ownership of guns. There is really nothing today that comes close to addressing the mental fitness issue. I would assume that there are many people who own guns today that may not meet a ‘mentally fit’ criteria. Most recently, we have the tragedy in Parkland, FL as an example.

That is what the children of this country may eventually solve, as they see and experience the continuing tragedies. I would imagine that the solution will involve making gun ownership more of a ‘privilege’ rather than a Constitutional right, and that obtaining the eligibility to possess guns will be a rather intensive and on-going process for an individual.

Just my thoughts . . .

Last edited by tpenfield; 02/22/18 02:54 PM.

Regards, Ted

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#570377 - 02/23/18 12:52 PM Re: "What is wrong" was asked........ [Re: GoFirstClass]  
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It would seem in this recent shooting and the events that led up to it that the ball was dropped many, many times by just about everyone who had a hand in this guy's life. We now find out that even the armed cop who was the resource officer didn't enter the school when he heard the shots inside. He stood outside and took up a defensive position in case the shooter came out that way. What a chicken [censored].

Every cop in America knows the drill when it comes to an active shooter situation. YOU GO TO HIM. You don't stand around with your thumb up your arse because you were too chicken to take the fight to the shooter.

That cop has since resigned and is in his home and being guarded by his former fellow officers.


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#570379 - 02/23/18 02:10 PM Re: "What is wrong" was asked........ [Re: GoFirstClass]  
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I am equal parts stunned at his lack of action and empathetic because NONE of us know how we would react until the literal bullets are flying.

I am a teacher, and as you can imagine this subject has once again been a big topic at lunch and whatnot. I consider myself pretty middle of the road about most things. I would be all for changes that would prevent this from happening again. I also believe that trampling on peoples rights is most likley not the answer.

In each of these situations, and the ensuing backlash, I have never heard a solution that would solve the problem. A few years ago we added a locked, buzz in door. In Sandy Hook, they had that and he shot his way through the door. I don't own guns, but have plenty of family that do and respect their decision. More gun control is easy to say, but most of the shooters historically were not legally entitled to carry the guns they used. I hear lot's of people crying out for solutions, but I just don't hear anything that will do it. It's tough to think about.

And no, arming teachers is really not a good idea. I honestly don't know a single teacher who wants to do that, and I know a lot of teachers. I do know a lot of teachers who would like smaller class sizes if you want to pay for something...


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#570381 - 02/23/18 06:41 PM Re: "What is wrong" was asked........ [Re: GoFirstClass]  
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tpenfield Offline
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That news about a police officer being on scene at the school and not following protocol is a mind blower. The parents must be more than outraged.

While I don’t own any guns, I know of a family who have 2 people who own guns. One of them would certainly not be a risk to anyone, whereas the other one may be a risk. Nothing in how guns are regulated is there to address the potential risk.

Last edited by tpenfield; 02/23/18 07:12 PM.

Regards, Ted

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#570382 - 02/23/18 07:31 PM Re: "What is wrong" was asked........ [Re: tpenfield]  
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Originally Posted by tpenfield
. Nothing in how guns are regulated is there to address the potential risk.

Ted, in a nutshell you just identified the problem. Our country is so "Sue Happy" that people in positions to do it are afraid to stick their neck out and call a spade a spade. Many of them have done the right thing though, and had someone "up the line" fail to do his/her part and process the information as they should.

In this situation there were at least 20 calls on this Cruz jerk where people took the time to call the authorities and make reports on him as a potential hazard to himself or others. In every one of those 20 calls the people receiving the information failed to act upon it in the manner they should have.

Had even a few of those people done what they should have done this sad incident might never have happened. Heads have already rolled over people not doing their job when they were passed information that should have been passed on. More head should roll until people in those positions of authority realize they have a DUTY to act and not taking action is dereliction of that duty.


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