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#561058 - 07/06/15 02:34 PM More pics- and rust is NOT my problem--  
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Frantically Relaxing Offline
Admiral
Frantically Relaxing  Offline
Admiral

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Pure, severe electrolysis is the problem. Rust is simply a by-product.

I got inside over the weekend with a flashlight and inspected the entire length of the starboard side, which is the side I took all the pics of in the first thread. This pic is up front, right below my helm...




The wife's cellphone is the only camera I had to take pics with, so they're not all that great, but here's two...

This is the same two holes looking down thru my door in the floor, with a 3rd pinhole hardly visible from outside:




And here's a closeup...




Notice anything missing? RUST! No rust whatsoever. None zero zip nada zilch. The entire starboard side looks just like this from inside. The inside is in pristine condition, except for the unwanted ventilation mad ....

All of the bad area around all of the holes pass the hammer test outside. There's no rust cancer anywhere. Only surface rust around the existing corrosion. At this point I really see no need to pay for ultrasound testing, except maybe under the engines....

Thoughts?





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#561059 - 07/06/15 02:54 PM Re: More pics- and rust is NOT my problem-- [Re: Frantically Relaxing]  
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Jack T Offline
Admiral
Jack T  Offline
Admiral

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Southern California
In a way this is good news. But bad news. At least you have probable cause and can begin planning the repair.

Please be careful with that lacquer thinner in the closed space.


Have a great day of boating
2012 Monterey 224 FS,
300 HP Volvo Penta with catalytic converters

#561062 - 07/06/15 04:26 PM Re: More pics- and rust is NOT my problem-- [Re: Frantically Relaxing]  
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Frantically Relaxing Offline
Admiral
Frantically Relaxing  Offline
Admiral

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I didn't even know that thinner was there until last month, there's still a whole bunch of PO stuff I've never unearthed in the basement!

#561064 - 07/06/15 08:40 PM Re: More pics- and rust is NOT my problem-- [Re: Frantically Relaxing]  
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GoFirstClass Offline
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Grand Poobah

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Pasco, WA
Kevin, I think I'd almost rather have rust. The electrolysis could be caused by something electrical on your boat or just something as simple as dissimilar metals.

You aren't too far from the Great Salt Lake. What is the alkalinity and PH of your water in your lake? Could that be part of the problem?


"Beachcomber" 1995 Sea Ray 550 Sedan Bridge


Anchor's down......Bottoms Up!
#561069 - 07/06/15 09:10 PM Re: More pics- and rust is NOT my problem-- [Re: Frantically Relaxing]  
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Frantically Relaxing Offline
Admiral
Frantically Relaxing  Offline
Admiral

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Utah Lake feeds the Great Salt Lake. Not sure of the PH or salt levels, but I don't think salt is a problem. Calcium happens REAL fast to my Chaparral, and there was a lot on the bottom of this boat when I pulled it in '07, but it's almost non-existant now.

I'm certain the problem is a shore power issue to do with my boat. Just something else to figure out--

#561071 - 07/07/15 01:35 AM Re: More pics- and rust is NOT my problem-- [Re: Frantically Relaxing]  
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GoFirstClass Offline
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Grand Poobah

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Pasco, WA
Yup, with all that spare time you are enjoying!


"Beachcomber" 1995 Sea Ray 550 Sedan Bridge


Anchor's down......Bottoms Up!
#561077 - 07/07/15 10:15 AM Re: More pics- and rust is NOT my problem-- [Re: Frantically Relaxing]  
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Dave R Offline
Admiral
Dave R  Offline
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Raymond NH
An isolation transformer would make make any shore power issues moot. With one of those transformers, you get all the power you need (you can even boost the voltage if it's a bit low) and the boat is completely disconnected from the shore (all the power is transferred through magnetic fields in the transformer, not conductors. It would offer wonderful peace of mind.


"Mischief Managed II"
1992 Tollycraft 44 Cockpit Motor Yacht
Twin CAT 3208TA inboards
#561082 - 07/07/15 03:37 PM Re: More pics- and rust is NOT my problem-- [Re: Frantically Relaxing]  
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Jack T Offline
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Jack T  Offline
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Southern California
"An isolation transformer would make make any shore power issues moot."

Dave. Good point, but electrical current could be created by dissimilar metals immersed in an electrolyte (Galvanism)--also a potential issue.

Here's an article describing the differences between "galvanic" corrosion and "electrolysis."
"As you can see from the definition above, electrolysis is what happens to the electrolyte (water), not what happens to any metallic components. This term has come to be applied to virtually all marine corrosion but what we are really talking about are two different types of electrically induced corrosion ......"
http://www.pcmarinesurveys.com/AC%20DC%20electrolysis.htm

From the reknown Dave Pascoe
http://marinesurvey.com/yacht/corrosion_1.htm

Here's an article about electrolysis, including ways to measure its existence. They also sell a device called a "Galvanic Isolator," which may be an isolation transformer.
http://www.yandina.com/electrolysis.htm

another article on Electrolysis and emphasis on salt water/zinc
http://yachtpals.com/how-to/electrolysis

Here's one that discusses electrolysis and a tool to measure stray currents. Since I don't know how to attach a pdf file, here is how you get to the article.
1. Go to http://www.fsc.com.au
2. Use their search engine and type in electrolysis
4. Find the article "Is Electrolysis Eating Your Boat?"


Have a great day of boating
2012 Monterey 224 FS,
300 HP Volvo Penta with catalytic converters

#561083 - 07/07/15 04:11 PM Re: More pics- and rust is NOT my problem-- [Re: Frantically Relaxing]  
Joined: Jun 2007
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lg260ss Offline
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lg260ss  Offline
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With all of the corrosion present, and your anodes still being intact, you clearly have an issue with your corrosion protection system.

Either, you have the wrong anodes, or not nearly enough anodes, or improperly installed anodes.

If they are Magnesium, they should have been gone long before all that corrosion occurred.

Also, if your anodes are lasting several years on your outdrives, they are the wrong anode. The idea is for the anodes to be sacrificial, not corrode at the same rate as the drives.

On top of that, you probably have a shore power issue also. You are going to have to do a lot of testing to get this figured out. These pictures are awful to see, I hope you get it worked out.


2013 Regal 28 Express, Volvo Penta V8 380 DPS
2005 GMC Sierra 2500HD
#561084 - 07/07/15 05:16 PM Re: More pics- and rust is NOT my problem-- [Re: Frantically Relaxing]  
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 11,955
Frantically Relaxing Offline
Admiral
Frantically Relaxing  Offline
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I understand galvanic corrosion due to dissimilar metals and water. What I don't understand is out-of-nowhere corrosion. There's not another piece of metal within miles of most of the corroded steel on this boat. The galvanized dock framing is of course on the starboard side, but it's 10" away.

Here's a little food for thought, 'corrosion history' I guess..

When we bought the boat, the 100 gallon aluminum black tank had a hole in it, right on top, within 2" of the downpipe. The hole was a little smaller than dime-sized, and it had the same green crud around it as car batteries get. The hole looked exactly as if acid ate thru it. There was nothing nearby the hole, but I've always assumed a wrench or something may have been left on top. But there was, and still is, no other hints of corrosion beyond the edges of the hole, which I patched with MarineTex.

Next up, the first winter. In February when gas prices bottomed out, I filled the fuel tanks using 5 gallon gas cans. We came out to the boat a few weeks later, and to my horror I found the bilge about 5" deep in gasoline. I found the 24" tall 78 gallon SB tank had only 9" of gas in it. Obviously there's a hole 9" up but it's hidden somewhere near the bulkhead or the hull side. I've never found or fixed the hole, I pumped the tank and it's been empty ever since. I tried removing the tank once but I didn't have an impact screwdriver, and I'm pretty sure I'll have to remove the starter (at the least) from the SB engine to get the tank out. I've never needed that much gas, soo...

Other than those holes in aluminum tanks, there were no other apparent corrosion issues. Still not sure how those holes happened? But both tanks are fully insulated from the hull...

And one more thing, which I'm sure is just an anomoly- Everything bad that's ever happened to this boat has been on the starboard side...
This corrosion is about twice as bad as the port side--
The SB starter had to be replaced.
The SB exhaust manifold's drain plug needed to be rethreaded-
The SB carb had to come off and be cleaned out.
The SB fuel tank has the leak
The black tank is on the SB side.
The shore power plugs are on the SB side.
The SB drive needs hydraulic hoses, U-joints and a new gimbal bearing.
The SB drive throttle cable is quite stiff.
The SB drive suffered more corrosion....

The Port engine has never given me a single problem, and the drive is still dead silent, vibration free and works perfectly...


#561086 - 07/07/15 05:48 PM Re: More pics- and rust is NOT my problem-- [Re: Frantically Relaxing]  
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captkevin Offline
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Chicago, IL
Maybe there is a connection between the shore power plugs on the SB side & your corrosion?


2004 Rinker 232
2010 Dodge Ram Crew Cab Laramie 4x4
#561091 - 07/07/15 10:51 PM Re: More pics- and rust is NOT my problem-- [Re: Frantically Relaxing]  
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Dave R Offline
Admiral
Dave R  Offline
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Raymond NH
I seriously doubt that was caused by galvanic corrosion, I am confident that stray current is the issue, hence the advice for the isolation transformer. With an isolation transformer, there's no path for stray current to flow to or from the boat.


"Mischief Managed II"
1992 Tollycraft 44 Cockpit Motor Yacht
Twin CAT 3208TA inboards
#561094 - 07/08/15 02:38 AM Re: More pics- and rust is NOT my problem-- [Re: Frantically Relaxing]  
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Jack T Offline
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Jack T  Offline
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Southern California
It would be interesting to find out if there are any stray currents at the dock while Skipper is not in the water.

Dave:
Is there a simple way to check this out?

FR:
Is the other boat trailered or does it stay at the dock? What about other long-term in-the-water boats tied to the dock? Any of them having corrosion issues? If so, where?


Have a great day of boating
2012 Monterey 224 FS,
300 HP Volvo Penta with catalytic converters

#561096 - 07/08/15 02:54 AM Re: More pics- and rust is NOT my problem-- [Re: Frantically Relaxing]  
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Frantically Relaxing Offline
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Frantically Relaxing  Offline
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No one on our dock has AC power but me. So whatever electric issue there is, my boat's been the source.

#561100 - 07/08/15 05:10 AM Re: More pics- and rust is NOT my problem-- [Re: Frantically Relaxing]  
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CharlesS Offline
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CharlesS  Offline
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Bryson City, NC. 28713
Sorry you have having such potentially serious issues. I agree with the stray current theory. Does the boat have to be connected to shore power 24/7? On our RV, I unplug from the outside source when we are not using it. It gets plugged in for a couple of days every two weeks or so to keep the house battery charged.


#561104 - 07/08/15 08:30 AM Re: More pics- and rust is NOT my problem-- [Re: Jack T]  
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Dave R Offline
Admiral
Dave R  Offline
Admiral

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Raymond NH


"Mischief Managed II"
1992 Tollycraft 44 Cockpit Motor Yacht
Twin CAT 3208TA inboards
#561106 - 07/08/15 10:38 AM Re: More pics- and rust is NOT my problem-- [Re: Frantically Relaxing]  
Joined: Jun 2007
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lg260ss Offline
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lg260ss  Offline
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Whether it be Galvanic or stray current corrosion, shouldn't the anodes (if working properly)be the first things to dissolve?


2013 Regal 28 Express, Volvo Penta V8 380 DPS
2005 GMC Sierra 2500HD
#561109 - 07/08/15 02:01 PM Re: More pics- and rust is NOT my problem-- [Re: Frantically Relaxing]  
Joined: Feb 2003
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Frantically Relaxing Offline
Admiral
Frantically Relaxing  Offline
Admiral

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Many Thanks Dave for all the suggestions, it's MUCH appreciated my friend! (I only wish I'd done my due diligence 9 years ago about isolation transformers)

Now, as for the stray current test as suggested, 'remove the bonding from a thru hull fitting..."-- I'm thinking this refers to glass boats? To the best of my knowledge, none of my thru hull fittings are bonded because the hull is steel. How/where would I take my measurements from?

I have taken voltage measurements with my Fluke from the hull to the water, which showed very low readings, below .1mV, but I've never figured that to be a good test since fresh water doesn't conduct electricity very well...

Another fly in the galvanic ointment, I was reading yesterday in one of the websites linked above, where someone states that AC current rarely causes corrosion, it's DC current that's usually to blame...?
Agghhh!! --what to believe?

As to Charles's question, yes, the boat is connected 24/7- During the summer because I have 4 refers running (1 RV fridge, 3 little ones), and in the winter to keep the water pump under the rear deck running to keep ice from forming around the drives.

And here's another very controversial topic, which I brought up in the other thread, which is repairing the damage to my boat with fiberglass rather than steel. I've been *attempting* to research this option. "Attempting" meaning I've found few resources on this topic. What I HAVE found is a few cases where it's been done, and a vast army of 'experts' who say it's a bad idea. What I have yet to find is any reference to someone who HAS done it, and said it didn't work. I HAVE found one reference to where a qualified surveyor suggested a full-hull glass cap via choppergun to the owner of a steel houseboat. The surveyor states he's surveyed a boat(s?) that have had this done several years prior and found zero issues with either the old steel or the new glass...

That all said, I'm not thinking of a complete hull cap, that would run around $25 large. That's more than half the boat's current worth. I'm thinking more along the lines of sandblasting and prepping the bad spots and a glass-stranded MarineTex type of patching over the bad areas. I can drill holes within the repair areas for the patch to bond to. Then a few layers of glass mat & resin. Once the bad areas are fixed, the rest of the hull gets blasted, prepped, then a fresh 3 coats of coal tar epoxy, then fresh bottom paint...

This is what a friend of mine suggested. And I've found no evidence other than 'expert opinions' that it's a 'bad idea'.

This option is appealing for several reasons. One, I can do all this myself. While replacing with steel may be cheaper, paying who's doing the replacing isn't. Second, this is a steel hulled boat going on 30 years old. Browse thru the houseboat forums and you'll find horror stories galore about how marina's won't allow them, how you can't find insurance for them, and their resale value is so low. Ergo, what's the upside to spending $15,000 to make a so-called worthless old houseboat float again, vs. 4 or 5 grand to repair it with glass, which may prove to work just fine. As long as I document the job, I don't see any more resale value difference than the extra money spent repairing with steel. I honestly don't know why this wouldn't work. Epoxy over steel followed by a lot more epoxy and then bottom paint...what's not to work? FWIW I don't buy into the argument I keep reading about steel and glass expanding at different rates. Steel cars are fixed with glass all the time, and they go thru the same temp extremes as this boat will ever see.

And if it doesn't work, so be it I guess. Pull it and fix it again. Then there will finally be some info online about how it didn't work. wink

We don't plan on selling this boat anytime soon. If the houseboat market never picks up, it'll likely end up being our kids's boat. With that in mind, all I want is for it to float and not corrode or rust away while doing so. smile

Let the flames fly! laugh

#561110 - 07/08/15 02:29 PM Re: More pics- and rust is NOT my problem-- [Re: Frantically Relaxing]  
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GoFirstClass Offline
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GoFirstClass  Offline
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Grand Poobah

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Pasco, WA
No flames from this corner of the US. What I see is you doing the repair you outlined above and becoming our BABC Laboratory, then posting your work and the results online for others to see.

Good Luck with the repair. It will be interesting to watch.


"Beachcomber" 1995 Sea Ray 550 Sedan Bridge


Anchor's down......Bottoms Up!
#561111 - 07/08/15 03:44 PM Re: More pics- and rust is NOT my problem-- [Re: Frantically Relaxing]  
Joined: Jul 2003
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Dave R Offline
Admiral
Dave R  Offline
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Raymond NH
Good point on the bonding and the steel hull, had not really thought about that... That said, I suspect the stray current is passing into the water from it's desire to get to ground. Perhaps a GFCI circuit breaker would tell you that you are losing current somewhere. All they do is compare the current on two wires and trip if there's a difference. Any current going out the hull and into the water would be missing from one leg of the shore power connection and that should trip the GFCI. Does it use 120 or 240 shore power?

You can buy a wire feed welder and patch it yourself for very little money. Don't even need inert gas, flux core would be perfectly fine. I think Harbor Freight sells a flux core welder for under 100 bucks. Dump the HF wire and replace it with Hobart or ESAB wire. Mistakes are easy to fix too. Stitch the path in place, then fill the gaps a little at a time to prevent warping from excess heat.

Last edited by Dave R; 07/08/15 03:45 PM.

"Mischief Managed II"
1992 Tollycraft 44 Cockpit Motor Yacht
Twin CAT 3208TA inboards
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