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#557197 - 09/15/14 10:55 PM GM 4 cyn OMC wont start 87 bayliner capri  
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goneboatin Offline
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goneboatin  Offline
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Hello Thanks for all the help regarding the lower unit . I got lower back on and it won't start it has not been started since last fall. the engine turns but acts like either no spark or no gas. it does not even try to start. I had drained the gas tank last winter and added 2 gallons of fresh fuel and a bottle of heet.

I notice as i try to start it i see puffs of what appears to be fuel mist coming from under the manifold just above the alternator. If puffs with each turn of the motor


does that mean there is a crack in the manifold or a gasket gone bad in the manifold keeping the fuel from the cylinders or is that unrelated and its just not getting spark to ignite the fuel?

where should i start?

Thanks



Last edited by goneboatin; 09/15/14 11:03 PM.
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#557205 - 09/16/14 11:56 AM Re: GM 4 cyn OMC wont start 87 bayliner capri [Re: goneboatin]  
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captkevin Offline
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2 gallons of gas might not be enough.


2004 Rinker 232
2010 Dodge Ram Crew Cab Laramie 4x4
#557208 - 09/16/14 12:54 PM Re: GM 4 cyn OMC wont start 87 bayliner capri [Re: goneboatin]  
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Jack T Offline
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"2 gallons of gas might not be enough."

I'll say that it probably is not enough.

In the past, I have used a separate gas can and a hose of the appropriate size going directly from the gas can to the input of the fuel pump--assuming carb'd engine. If you have the right kind of fuel resistant clear tubing, you would be able to verify fuel is flowing.

Put the gas can somewhere else besides inside the boat. Swim step might be appropriate. Make sure it is stable and won't fall over or off.

Whenever working with fuel in a boat, keep a fire extinguisher handy just in case. Maybe even a second person outside the boat with their own. Can never be too careful.


Have a great day of boating
2012 Monterey 224 FS,
300 HP Volvo Penta with catalytic converters

#557212 - 09/16/14 03:25 PM Re: GM 4 cyn OMC wont start 87 bayliner capri [Re: Jack T]  
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Capn Morgan Offline
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Originally Posted By: Jack T

Put the gas can somewhere else besides inside the boat. Swim step might be appropriate.


Might not be a swimstep on his B-liner to put the can on.
Some have em' some do not. Definitely no can on the boat though.


2004 Chaparral 235 SSi
[Linked Image]
#557216 - 09/16/14 05:53 PM Re: GM 4 cyn OMC wont start 87 bayliner capri [Re: goneboatin]  
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Dave R Online content
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The engine needs spark, fuel/air and compression to run. Test for spark and compression, and if they are good, address the fuel and air. If the engine spent a year with 10% ethanol gasoline in the carburetor, it is likely in need of a rebuild. Once you have it running address the leak.


"Mischief Managed"
2000 Regal 2550 LSC
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#557218 - 09/16/14 07:54 PM Re: GM 4 cyn OMC wont start 87 bayliner capri [Re: goneboatin]  
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Jack T Offline
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"Might not be a swimstep on his B-liner to put the can on.
Some have em' some do not."

There is at least one reason that the gas can should be at a height about even with the fuel pump is that it will feed the fuel pump through gravity. A couple of ladders with some wood planks between the steps used for scaffolding might do the trick. Again, make sure the can is cinched down adequately to keep if from falling or rolling off.


Have a great day of boating
2012 Monterey 224 FS,
300 HP Volvo Penta with catalytic converters

#557219 - 09/16/14 09:55 PM Re: GM 4 cyn OMC wont start 87 bayliner capri [Re: goneboatin]  
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Lowrider78 Offline
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Air, fuel, spark, minimal compression, correct.

Air is no problem, BUT, what SOUNDS like an intake manifold gasket leak COULD cause problems with ONE cylinder (not the other 3 unless it is a leak up by the carburetor). Address THAT once you get it fired up. Remove manifold and see if it is merely a gasket failure (reasonably comon) or actual manifold problem (uncommon, but not impossible).

Fuel:
Remove fuel line from carb, hold over a container (like a coffee or soup can).
REMOVE COIL CENTER WIRE, and have friend crank engine. If no fuel pumps out, or it pumps out very weak, you either have not enough fuel for the pumpto pick up, or you have a dead pump.
Incidentally, it is much better to leave the tank FULL and add Sta-Bil (then drive boat a bit), than it is to empty the tank and invite condensation inside the tank all fall, winter, spring.

If lots of fuel pumps out, you have fuel TO the carb, put the line back on.

With the engine OFF, open the choke plate (if equipped) on top of the carburetor and, while looking down the carb throats (where the air goes) stroke the throttle arm once or twice (have a friend do it from the helm if need be). If fluid sprays into the carburetor venturis, you have fuel IN the carb, and the accelerator pump works. Should be one sprayer for every "throat" or "barrel" of the carb (prob. just one for your 4-cyl).

If fuel TO the carb, but not IN it, stuck float(s), MIGHT get loose by tapping smartly with a SOFT tool handle(plastic screwdriver handle), whack it (vibration may get it loose). Otherwise, overhaul it.

Now, for the most fun.

Put the coil wire back in. Have a friend hold one of the spark plug wires (removed from the plug and the boot pulled back to expose the metal tip) and crank the engine. If your friend get's electrocuted, you have spark. If he gets electrocuted on his tongue, you have a very stupid friend, and we want video. smile

If he holds the tip close to the engine block, and holds the insulation only, he should be able to see strong, fat, blue-white sparks (some 12-15,000 volts typically). Weak yellow ones that won't jump a good distance (like 3/8 inch or so), mean bad coil OR points problem (failure, condensor failure, bad dwell setting).

If you hook a timing light to #1 plug wire, you can check for BOTH spark AND base timing.


That streak that howled by? That was me. Did ya like the roostertail? Big Blocks and Jets Forever
1978 Hawiian 20' Bowrider, 454, Dominator pump
1990 Magnum Mach 1 24' Cuddy Cabin Cruiser, 454, Bravo 1 drive.
1993 Suburban 454 tows the Mach 1 to water.
2001 Blazer 4x4 4.3L gets the Hawaiian wet.
#557220 - 09/16/14 10:27 PM Re: GM 4 cyn OMC wont start 87 bayliner capri [Re: goneboatin]  
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goneboatin Offline
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goneboatin  Offline
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Hello Wow thanks for all the info what i did before reading the newest replies is as soon as i got home i disconnect the line going to the fuel pump and attached a small funnel filled with gas held high and had some one try to start it . I don't know if this is normal or not but the fuel moved very slowly really slow as if only pulled by gravity is that normal shouldn't the pump had sucked the fuel down the funnel kind of fast . it was about a half a cup of gas in a funnel into the hose and took about 2-3 minutes of trying to start it for it to empty

#557222 - 09/17/14 12:56 AM Re: GM 4 cyn OMC wont start 87 bayliner capri [Re: Lowrider78]  
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goneboatin Offline
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goneboatin  Offline
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"If he holds the tip close to the engine block, and holds the insulation only, he should be able to see strong, fat, blue-white sparks (some 12-15,000 volts typically). Weak yellow ones that won't jump a good distance (like 3/8 inch or so), mean bad coil OR points problem (failure, condensor failure, bad dwell setting)."

I just tried this got no spark at all the only thing i did different is the boots don't pull back so inserted a electrical wire into the plug wire then touched the other end to the block with no spark at all

Last edited by goneboatin; 09/17/14 12:59 AM.
#557223 - 09/17/14 06:25 AM Re: GM 4 cyn OMC wont start 87 bayliner capri [Re: goneboatin]  
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Lowrider78 Offline
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Often spark plug boots are stuck enough they don't slide back, A phillips screwdriver stuck in one and the shank held close to the engine (valve cover or exhaust manifold usually is easy), hold tool by the plastic handle, no shocks. smile

Gravity will not push fuel through the fuel pump, pump action has to move it through the valves it has. Sounds like it is working. If you had a fuel pressure gauge, you could see if the pump output pressure was correct, should be (for a carb) somewhere from 4 to 7 psi.
Fuel injection it is much higher.

Sounds like it is ignition trouble. A timing light, if points, a dwell meter, COULD be a dead coil as well. An ohm-meter would tell you if the PRIMARY winding of the coil (where the 2 small wires connect) is open, remove wires and read resistance, infinite is open (bad). Do not know offhand what would be "correct" range of resistance. Also, MUST BE infinite resistance between primary winding and outer body of coil, or it is "shorted" (bad). Also should be infinite resistance between primary winding and SECONDARY winding (the center output post to the distributor).

When points connect, electricity in the primary winding makes a magnetic field.
When they open, the field collapses and induces a large electrical charge in the secondary winding which basically shorts itself to ground through the distributor and spark plugs.


That streak that howled by? That was me. Did ya like the roostertail? Big Blocks and Jets Forever
1978 Hawiian 20' Bowrider, 454, Dominator pump
1990 Magnum Mach 1 24' Cuddy Cabin Cruiser, 454, Bravo 1 drive.
1993 Suburban 454 tows the Mach 1 to water.
2001 Blazer 4x4 4.3L gets the Hawaiian wet.
#557302 - 09/22/14 11:28 PM Re: GM 4 cyn OMC wont start 87 bayliner capri [Re: goneboatin]  
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goneboatin Offline
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goneboatin  Offline
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i am not sure if i am doing this right and i don't know what "infinite" is on my meter so i took some pictures

touching nothing set at 200


touching 2 post





Last edited by goneboatin; 09/22/14 11:29 PM.
#557309 - 09/23/14 07:27 PM Re: GM 4 cyn OMC wont start 87 bayliner capri [Re: goneboatin]  
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Lowrider78 Offline
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"Infinite" will get you one of several things depending on the meter programming.

Digitals will usually give "OL", which is "Out Of Limit".
You MIGHT get an "OR, which would look like "OA", for "Out Of range".

I personally don't like meters that read "0" when not connected to anything, as it is confusing. That would be what "infinite" reads for the same meter.
Oh well, usually a "direct connection" that is good will STILL have a 1/2 ohm of resistance, or at least a few tenths (0.2, 0.3 Ohms), just from wire resistance and or imperfect connections.

1.5 Ohms is POSSIBLY right for the primary windings on a coil.

My new MSD Blaster II coil (same design) is at the moment MUIA, I was going to check it for comparison.

The secondary winding is the centerpost.

You should get NO conductivity (infinitely high resistance in Ohms) between the primary winding (either small post) and the outer case or the center post.
Also, no conductivity from center post to outer case.

How it works is as follows.

Power is fed to the coil, "+" post.
The points break the "-" circuit to ground.
When the points are closed, power runs through the coil primary winding, through the points, to ground.
This current flow causes a magnetic field to form around the primary windings.
The primary windings are not very many turns of fairly large wire.
When the points open, current flow stops, the magnetic field collapses.
The collapse of the field INDUCES (creates) an electrical voltage in the secondary winding (which is a whole big bunch of turns of really really small wire).
This big voltage (lots of electrical pressure, from 16,000 to over 70,000 volts) energizes the coil wire, and whatever spark plug wire the distributor connects to, and it "shorts itself" to ground by jumping the gap at the spark plug.

ANY continuity to the outer case shorts electricity directly to the engine ground without doing any work.

If the center post (the "high voltage output") has any continuity to the primary coil, this is also bad.

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/ignition-system3.htm




That streak that howled by? That was me. Did ya like the roostertail? Big Blocks and Jets Forever
1978 Hawiian 20' Bowrider, 454, Dominator pump
1990 Magnum Mach 1 24' Cuddy Cabin Cruiser, 454, Bravo 1 drive.
1993 Suburban 454 tows the Mach 1 to water.
2001 Blazer 4x4 4.3L gets the Hawaiian wet.
#557310 - 09/23/14 07:29 PM Re: GM 4 cyn OMC wont start 87 bayliner capri [Re: goneboatin]  
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Posts: 1,834
Lowrider78 Offline
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Newton Ks
OK, you have a "1", with 2 spaces to the left of the decimal point.

Dunno what that is supposed to mean (check your meter book), but, that is your meter's "infinite resistance" reading.


That streak that howled by? That was me. Did ya like the roostertail? Big Blocks and Jets Forever
1978 Hawiian 20' Bowrider, 454, Dominator pump
1990 Magnum Mach 1 24' Cuddy Cabin Cruiser, 454, Bravo 1 drive.
1993 Suburban 454 tows the Mach 1 to water.
2001 Blazer 4x4 4.3L gets the Hawaiian wet.
#557411 - 09/26/14 09:36 PM Re: GM 4 cyn OMC wont start 87 bayliner capri [Re: goneboatin]  
Joined: Aug 2013
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goneboatin Offline
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goneboatin  Offline
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Here is where i am at with it

NO conductivity (infinitely high resistance in Ohms) between the primary winding (either small post) and the outer case or the center post.
Also, no conductivity from center post to outer case.

No spark when coming out of the spark plug wire using a screw driver in them and touching the block while turning the motor

No spark in the coil wire doing the same as above

It is getting fuel

Compression test reads #1 130 #2 100 #3 130 #4 140


also note the mist i see blowing out from under the manifold that i thought was gas (maybe a air gas mix) is blowing out opposite side between #1 and #2


Last edited by goneboatin; 09/26/14 09:40 PM.
#557416 - 09/27/14 12:56 AM Re: GM 4 cyn OMC wont start 87 bayliner capri [Re: goneboatin]  
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Jack T Offline
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Jack T  Offline
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"also note the mist i see blowing out from under the manifold that i thought was gas (maybe a air gas mix) is blowing out opposite side between #1 and #2"

Possibly the reason for the lower compression in #2 cylinder?


Have a great day of boating
2012 Monterey 224 FS,
300 HP Volvo Penta with catalytic converters

#557562 - 10/03/14 02:40 PM Re: GM 4 cyn OMC wont start 87 bayliner capri [Re: goneboatin]  
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KD4PBS Offline
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Bad coil and blown head gasket.
Time to break out some larger wrenches.

#557566 - 10/03/14 08:03 PM Re: GM 4 cyn OMC wont start 87 bayliner capri [Re: goneboatin]  
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Jack T Offline
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Jack T  Offline
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Southern California
Congrats to boiling the problems down to only two.


Have a great day of boating
2012 Monterey 224 FS,
300 HP Volvo Penta with catalytic converters


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