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#502257 - 11/06/10 02:07 PM Re: Replacing a starter [Re: captkevin]  
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Budinski Offline
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Houston
The oil looks fine--just like the day I changed it last May, and I've only put 24 hrs on since then. It looks clean and at the proper level.

I just checked and found water in 3 of the 4 cylinders although the 4th one may be wet also. The water is very dark (like muddy or full of carbon residue or something).


FR, what's a riser?


2000 Sea Ray 180 BR
2000 SeaArk 15
2000 Expedition
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#502297 - 11/07/10 11:35 AM Re: Replacing a starter [Re: Budinski]  
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Frantically Relaxing Offline
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The riser is the generic name for the exhaust manifold(s) on boat engines. The riser is actually on TOP of the manifold. It's called a 'riser' because the exhaust outlet rises up before turning back down to exit the exhaust, this is done to prevent water from entering the exhaust and cylinders.

I have the same engine as you, I've pointed them out...



=============

The exhaust manifolds are water cooled, using lake water. This water enters the front of the riser via a water hose (near the manifold arrow) and exits at the rear into the exhaust stream where the riser connects to to the manifold, the water and exhaust both end up in the lake. If the manifold/riser seal should go bad, then water can leak back down into the exhaust ports and into your cylinders. A cracked riser could do the same thing...

Because most of your cylinders have water in them, that shifts the most likely suspect to the manifold/riser instead of the head gasket-- a blown head gasket can account for water in 2 cylinders, but not 3 or more (typically).

IF that's the problem, it's still not a terribly spendy fix. However, I believe you're at the point that you'd probably be better off having a shop check it out...


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#502389 - 11/08/10 11:55 PM Re: Replacing a starter [Re: Frantically Relaxing]  
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Budinski Offline
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Houston
FR, thanks for the education. I am now wondering about a tell tale sign that I've seen for a long time. At the place where the riser attaches to the engine, there is a bunch of rust. I brought this to the attention of two mechanics, but neither one of them were too concerned. As I recall, they said that is somewhat normal to see rust there.

I wonder what the metal-to-metal scrapping is coming from.

Going through the worst-case scenario in my head, I get to a total replacement of the engine block and internal components--an expensive situation I'm sure. So that takes me to the next question: is it possible to remove the 3.0 carbureted engine and replace it with a fuel injected engine?


2000 Sea Ray 180 BR
2000 SeaArk 15
2000 Expedition
#502393 - 11/09/10 07:01 AM Re: Replacing a starter [Re: Budinski]  
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Lou C Offline
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I think you're onto something right there...if there is rust on the outside of the riser/manifold joint, there could be water leaking on the INSIDE of it, which can explain where the water in the cylinders came from. The joint between the manifold and the riser is the Achilles Heel of I/Os because the exhaust gas passage and the water cooling passages are right next to each other, and if that gasket fails, it is common for cooling water to leak down the manifold and get into the cylinders whose exhaust valves are open when the engine stops. The actual sealing surface is quite small, if water starts leaking in, it corrodes the surface and the surface is no longer flat enough to seal well. Merc went to their dry joint exhaust system most likely to eliminate this problem. That separates the exhaust passage and the cooling water so that can't happen. If a manifold rusts through you can still get water in the cylinders but that takes years to happen, esp in freshwater.

My old OMC 4.3 V-6 has the one piece manifolds, that have no joint between the manifold and risers. They no doubt are expensive to cast, but to me this is a superior design. I put a new set on in 2004 (salt water use) and bought an extra set a year later and stashed them in the garage because I knew some OMC parts would be hard to find. They were expensive, close to 400 a side. But it's a superior design, Merc used it too but discontinued them, not sure why. Some Volvos had a problem with those gaskets failing and water in the cylinders...

With this design, I have never had water in the cylinders, and when I winterize, I fill the manifolds and engine with the best -100 antifreeze, to make them last as long as possible. Here in salt water you can expect 5-7 years, sometimes as long as 9 if you fill with AF in the off season according to my mechanics...

Last edited by Lou C; 11/09/10 07:06 AM.

88 Four Winns 200 Horizon 4.3 OMC
98 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0 Six Selectrac
07 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 HEMI Quadradrive II
#502411 - 11/09/10 05:57 PM Re: Replacing a starter [Re: Lou C]  
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Frantically Relaxing Offline
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Bud, they still don't make the 3.0 4-banger in a fuel injected version. Closest they have to FI is what I have, a carburetor which is laughingly called "turn key start".

Lets get back to the metal-to-metal sound-- did it only do it while starting? OR even after it was running?

Because if it was only while starting, then you have very little to worry about aside from replacing the riser gaskets and possibly the riser assembly...


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#502417 - 11/09/10 07:37 PM Re: Replacing a starter [Re: Frantically Relaxing]  
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captkevin Offline
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Hard to believe there is no MPI version of the 3.0?

http://www.mercurymarine.com/engines/inboards/sterndrives/mpi3.php


2004 Rinker 232
2010 Dodge Ram Crew Cab Laramie 4x4
#502423 - 11/09/10 09:26 PM Re: Replacing a starter [Re: captkevin]  
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Frantically Relaxing Offline
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New one on me. But with a cat converter, that means it IS new.

All that extra money for multiport injection and cats, and the HP is still 135. Talk about your no-bang-for-the-buck. Thanks Kalyfournya.
rolleyes


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#502437 - 11/10/10 07:57 AM Re: Replacing a starter [Re: Frantically Relaxing]  
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captkevin Offline
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I've seen earlier versions of the 3.0 mpi that were 150 hp without the cats.


2004 Rinker 232
2010 Dodge Ram Crew Cab Laramie 4x4
#502442 - 11/10/10 10:34 AM Re: Replacing a starter [Re: captkevin]  
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Budinski Offline
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Houston
FR, the metal-to-metal sound started on the day that I was having trouble starting the engine. So, I only heard it while I was trying to start it. In fact, the first few starting attempts it sounded normal. It was only after several attempts did the scraping sound start. That's why I thought it had to do with the starter. And that's why once I heard that awful sound, I didn't try starting it any more because I thought I would be doing real damage to something.

So, in summry, I never heard the scraping noise while it was running. I'm not 100% sure that I would have heard it while it was running due to the ususal engine noise, but I "think" I would have heard it and shut it down immediately. But I do know for a fact that it was not there on my first starting attempts but started after several attempts.


2000 Sea Ray 180 BR
2000 SeaArk 15
2000 Expedition
#502458 - 11/10/10 06:22 PM Re: Replacing a starter [Re: Budinski]  
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I stand corrected on the MPI, but 2009 is the oldest I can find...


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#502764 - 11/16/10 09:13 PM Re: Replacing a starter [Re: Frantically Relaxing]  
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Budinski Offline
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Houston
I just dropped-off the boat at a shop. They said that based upon my description of what happened, the metal-to-metal sounds that I heard, and all the other things (i.e. that it sat for over 2 months in this condition and without the spark plugs for the last couple of weeks) that the engine will most likely need to be rebuilt. Tomorrow they will give me a cost estimate to totally rebuild the 3.0 liter engine.

They looked at the engine area and determined that a larger, fuel injected engine could fit in it. It was getting late and they were about ready to close for the day, and I had to get going, so we couldn’t talk long. They said that they had a rebuilt 4.3 liter engine (MPI or EFI—they couldn’t remember for sure) that would cost about $4k and labor would be $700 - $1000.

Besides me asking what their warranty on the parts and labor is, what other questions should I ask? My (broken) engine is 10 years old with 321 hours on it. Do I need to be concerned what year the rebuilt engine is and/or how many hours it has seen? Are there “good” years for that engine to look for and “bad” years on that engine to stay away from?

My intuition says that the MPI would be the better engine over the EFI: am I correct? Do I need to worry much about that if it is the EFI rather than the MPI? When I brought this up, they said that I wouldn’t know the difference in performance between the two, so there must be some level of difference—even if it is minor. They said the horsepower would go from 135 with my 3.0 up to 240 HP (I believe that’s the number that they said).

They said they have lots of confidence that the 4.3 engine will replace the 3.0 engine easily. Are there things that I should bring to their attention to ensure that the result will be completely acceptable?

I will have them inspect the bellows, gimbals, and other components since they are working back there. Are there other things to do while they are digging into it?

So, just thinking …if the total cost to rebuild the 3.0 engine is $4k and the total cost to go to the 4.3 engine is $5k, what would you do? I guess I could look at as paying $1000 to nearly double my horsepower. Besides increased fuel costs with the larger engine, are there other drawbacks to consider?

As you can tell, I’ve got many questions because I never have discussed this type of change with anybody, so I want to understand all the trade-offs and consequences with the decision. Any guidance, advice, or recommendations would be appreciated. Do any of you have the Sea Ray 180 Bow Rider with that engine? What's your opinion of that combination?

Bud


2000 Sea Ray 180 BR
2000 SeaArk 15
2000 Expedition
#502771 - 11/16/10 10:21 PM Re: Replacing a starter [Re: Budinski]  
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casualboater Offline
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Gotta love the idea of the fuel injected, that's for sure. Was the boat offered with the 4.3 as an option? If it was, that would be a good sign.


1989 Larson DC 190
2017 GMC Acadia SLT-1
#502772 - 11/16/10 10:28 PM Re: Replacing a starter [Re: casualboater]  
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Budinski Offline
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Houston
Yes,it was offered that way. When the mechanic looked at the engine area, he quickly pointed out the two flat areas left and right of the current engine. He said that's where the engine mounts fasten.


2000 Sea Ray 180 BR
2000 SeaArk 15
2000 Expedition
#502773 - 11/16/10 10:48 PM Re: Replacing a starter [Re: Budinski]  
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Boise, ID
Make sure the motor comes complete. Adding 1.3 more liters as well as the fuel injection would be a nice upgrade. The ultimate question is, would you be better off replacing the boat all together.


James
2002 Cobalt 226 VP 8.1GIDP
2007 Chevy 2500HD Crew Cab Duramax
1988 Suburban 3/4 Ton
2000 Subaru Forester


#502776 - 11/17/10 05:49 AM Re: Replacing a starter [Re: Silverbullet]  
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More HP is always a good thing. Would be a nice upgrade. What about out drive and/or prop? Would they need to be changed with the 4.3? I would get a turn key cost on both repairs before I gave the go ahead. SB brings up another very good option.


2005 Cobalt 246 8.1 Gi
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2001 Key Largo 190 CC
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#502777 - 11/17/10 07:12 AM Re: Replacing a starter [Re: kdl]  
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Budinski Offline
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Houston
SB, when you say "...the motor comes complete..." do you mean complete with new components like the starter, hydraulic pump, generator, and the like?
The rest of the boat is in excellent condition. It's been garage kept all the time. If I were to replace the boat, it would probably mean greater out-of-pocket costs, and that wouldn't be good. My wife would like a boat with a head, and that would probably mean a larger boat which means that it would no longer fit in my garage which means I would then have monthly storage costs.

KDL, in our very brief conversation, they said the out drive is compatible, but I believe they said they would look at the gearing in the out drive to see if that needed to be changed if they changed the engine. I know he brought-up the prop because he was surprised to hear that I had a stainless steel prop.


2000 Sea Ray 180 BR
2000 SeaArk 15
2000 Expedition
#502796 - 11/17/10 01:25 PM Re: Replacing a starter [Re: Budinski]  
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Boise, ID
The ECU is the main thing you want to ensure as they are expensive. I would make sure it has everything it needs to work.


James
2002 Cobalt 226 VP 8.1GIDP
2007 Chevy 2500HD Crew Cab Duramax
1988 Suburban 3/4 Ton
2000 Subaru Forester


#502800 - 11/17/10 05:56 PM Re: Replacing a starter [Re: Silverbullet]  
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Frantically Relaxing Offline
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Umm--- I would make sure that the SHOP makes sure that your 321 hour engine actually needs to be rebuilt-- more power is nice, but so is having $4800 in your pocket if you only need $200 in repairs.

I'm not the least bit convinced you need a rebuild.

I had a very scary metal-to-metal sound appear one day back when we had the Sea Ray. I'd determined it came from the front of the engine, just wasn't sure what.

It turned out to be one of the screws holding the alternator together came loose, and was hitting the fan blades behind the alternator's pulley. What I thought could be hundreds of $$$ to fix only needed 15 seconds work with a screwdriver...


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#502811 - 11/17/10 08:02 PM Re: Replacing a starter [Re: Frantically Relaxing]  
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Budinski Offline
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Houston
They got into the engine today and determined it needs a new manifold and riser and the associated gaskets but doesn't need to be rebuilt. They also said the starter is weak. They said around $800 for the parts and around $600 for the labor. I don't have any specific details that I can list here, but that's the preliminary word. When I see the parts and get more details, I'll share them. Oh, they are also doing annual services on it as well--which I believe is included in those prices. I'll find out tomorrow or the next day.


2000 Sea Ray 180 BR
2000 SeaArk 15
2000 Expedition
#502812 - 11/17/10 08:35 PM Re: Replacing a starter [Re: Budinski]  
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Lou C Offline
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Changing the engine from the 3.0 to a 4.3 would have been a LOT more involved than they described, first of all the 3.0 has one mount in the front of the engine the 4.3 has one on each side, so completely new engine mount stringers would have to be made out of wood and 'glass. Then the entire exhaust system from the manifolds to the Y pipe is different. Lastly the gear ratio in the drive is most likley different as well. These differences would make changing to a 4.3, while a great power upgrade, quite expensive. Stick with the 3.0 esp if you felt the power was adquate, and I'm not convinced that fuel injection is worth the cost on a boat either, a well set up carb works fine and keeps repair costs reasonable. I had my Quadrajet rebuilt for $160 and the boat runs great.


88 Four Winns 200 Horizon 4.3 OMC
98 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0 Six Selectrac
07 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 HEMI Quadradrive II
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