Looking at getting a new car. Current car is up in mileage, needs a major service, has a bad oil leak, and I am pretty sure something is amiss with the steering/CV/goroundski in the front. Anyway, looking at replacing rather than patching. I've looked around, and haven't really seen anything that catches my fancy too much. i would go with another Saab, but not sure they'll be around much longer.
A couple of things, i am hard on cars. The weak will not survive. It must have pretty good power, current car is 250hp, borderline sufficient and handle well. I only buy used, no brand new cars, preferably a couple of years old. Preferably 4 door, awd is nice, but not necessary. Oh, one last thing, nothing made by Toyota.

Couple of cars i looked at that I thought were decent,
M45 (RWD is a big drawback)
G35X
Acura RL
Caddy CTS4
Land Rover LR3 V8 (one of these things ain't like the others, one of these things just doesn't belong)
And I actually checked out an XJ8. It's whole presence scared me and the thought of fixing it.

I know how much you guys typically like to spend other's money. So, if I pull the trigger, what is your opinions on what is out there? Thanks.

Out of that list, and based only on what I've seen with people I know who have owned them (I haven't owned any of those), I'd say the Acura RL or the G35X.

What about BMW 528xi?

M35x is a nice car also

+1 on the M35x. My brother has one, atsa some nice ride.

Do we take it you want a CAR .... no SUV? .... no crossover?

How much can we spend?

I think the styling and technical refinement of the Caddy would get my vote. The M45 & G35 are bland as white bread and the Acura looks almost silly from the front with it's smiley face grill. At least the Caddy is distinctive and their design has proven longevity. I would also give it an edge on overall handling. Performance is decent for that class if you can find one with the bigger motor.

The Nissan Maxima makes a great used car. - very reliable, and doesn't hold it's value particularly well (i.e. inexpensive on the used market). The same can be said for the Volvo S80.

Don't have to stick to my list. Just throwing a few thoughts out there.
I'd like to stick to car. I drive a lot, and find cars more my thing, mileage is somewhat important too. Cross over might do it depending on circumstances.
I looked at a couple of maximas, I like the newer body. But do they come with a real transmission and not the CVT thing? I don't think I could get used to that.
I have to becareful about the appearance of the vehicle as well. Can't look too expensive for the customers, but I prefer to be comfortable for long drives.
Any one have experience with the VW CC?

Nothing hold resale like a 3 series BMW. Almost a cult like following. Great cars as well.

Almost pulled the trigger on a 330i two weeks ago. Loved it, but too small for my purposes. It was a great deal too.

Maxima is a great car. Just got rid of one as you know. 45,000 miles and still drove like new with zero issues. I am just more of the truck guy. That is the reason I decided to make a switch.

Not sure if these will meet your image requirements given that the best cars in the class generally carry the “best” image which is what you seem to be avoiding.

Mercedes E class or C class if not too small
BMW 5 series since the 3 was too small
Audi A4 (maybe too small?) or A6--- I have heard their reliability is way better now

The Audi could be an excellent match. It doesn’t have the stronger resell value of the BMW or MB which gets you into the car for cheaper. Audi is a leader in AWD technology. The problem areas: the turbo 4 outputs 200hp although it’s a torque monster...peak HP is at 5,000 rpms. It’s a pretty heavy car at 3500lbs. The larger V6 is NA 255hp on 12.5 compression, which means it probably is going to need premium gas. AWD Turbo 4 with 6-speed auto will yield about 28+mpg on the highway, 20ish in town. You can be a 2007 in the very low 20’s. That’s A4 setup.

In the A6 you’re looking at mid to high 20’s probably for an 2007. The same 255 NA V6 is base and a 350hp 4.2L V8 is optional power. 25mpg on the highway in this car with the V8. I think they have a turbo V6 that came out in 2010 maybe 2009 MY thats 300hp.

Both of these Audi’s are available in wagon trim (Avant) if that blows your hair back.

VW also offers lessor of these two Audi’s.

A4 Avant:


A4 Sedan:


A6 Avant:


A6 Sedan:

Did you have the CVT or traditional trans? i can't get past that slippy feel of the CVT. Really nice car, comfy, handles well, feels very solid. Just feels like the tranny isn't working right, but it is.

What is the reputation of Audi recently. They were pretty questionable all but a couple of years ago? I like the Audi, but do not want a garage queen.

Yes, audi came out with the 3.0T i beleive it was. Twin turbo 6 cylinder pushing 300hp. i am not a huge fan of twin turbos, seem they act more like a supercharger, always trying to run with boost. They eliminate the turbo lag, but also lose that lower rpm non-boosted efficiency as well. Maybe this is different, Audi seems to do well with thier power plant advancements. Too bad an A6 with a V10 TDI doesn't exist...

Supposedly the 09 MY of the 2.0 Turbo 4 was a compete redesign the address all of the known issues with the previous 2.0L.

The 2007 A6 receives complete 5-star reliability on autos.msn.com.

Not an expert in the field but what I have heard is that post 05 VW and Audi stuff is pretty good. I think they had some issues with the 2.0 turbo when it debuted though that was completely fixed in 2009 MY. I have no idea about where that 255hp V6 is in reliability though.

I drive a 2004 G35x. (wifes car) 80+thousand miles.
Good ride, excellent handling, excellent acceleration, not fuel efficient, averages 20mpg with a proven engine that lasts and lasts. If you are a big guy the shoulder width is tight. I like a lot of leg room and it gives me just enough. Eats brake pads, tight on trunk space. Some on dash controls are badly located. Smooth quite shifting! Comfortable reclining rear seats.
I would still reccomend it over the BMW 500 series (because of price)and the Caddie because of the price as well but do like the Cad. since they now offer all wheel.
Looking forward the driving the new Buick LaCross. Like the look of it.

One of the guys I carpool with has a newer Volvo Cross Country. It's a very comfortable and quick car, and goes shockingly well in snow. Not too flashy to look at either.

I won't comment on the Acura because beauty is in the eye of the beerholder. I am guessing you've never driven a G35X otherwise you probably would not have made that comment.

As to the Caddy's longevity--yes, it does have a few year's track record of holding up. That's not like the Infiniti/Nissan record that goes back many years.

To each his own, but anyone would have a hard time selling me on an American made product now. Say what you want about GM's quality but when their claim to fame is "We're catching up to Toyota in quality", that leaves me pretty cold.

I drive a BMW 330i, GW drives a G35X. I rented numerous American cars over the last several years and none of them would hold a candle to what we're driving.

WM, take a hard look at a Maxima. Plenty of power, handles and drives nice, longevity is proven not speculated about, and looks good.

Yes, it had the CVT tranny. Hard to get used to it but after you do it feel normal. Car was quick and responsive.

Having had our Maxima for 5 months, I'll provide an "Al" update.

The CVT transmission really doesn't feel that much different unless you punch the throttle. For the most part, I hardly feel the sensation of the CVT anymore. You get used to it pretty quickly. It just feels like a super-smooth transmission.

But when you really stand on the thing hard, the engine winds up to high RPM waiting the rest of the car to catch up. Thats about the only time I really notice a difference in the transmission.

On my car, I can put the transmission in "Sport" mode; it still shifts automatically, but feels like a normal shifting transmission where you can feel the shift points; or for real fun, put it into the "Manual" mode and shift manually. But for the best fuel economy, just leave it in CVT mode, and let the car figure it out. These were standard modes of the transmission. You can also get paddle shifters on the steering wheel, but I did not get those.

One thing about the CVT; for 2009, the transmission was redesigned (I think its now the 6th generation model), and as a result, there has been some concern from some owners about its reliability and so forth. To alleviate any concerns, Nissan added an extended warranty for the CVT at no charge. I got a letter about a month ago with a little sticker to put in the warranty booklet about the longer warranty. I'd have to check to see what they extended the warranty to.

The transmission takes a special oil, only available from Nissan. You will void the warranty if you put any transmission oil in that isn't the genuine Nissan oil. I am not sure how much that is going to cost me, but I normally have the car serviced by a Nissan dealership anyway ...

One other issue is if you ever have the car towed, you must not tow the car with the front wheels on the ground or you will damage the CVT.

We just put about 2,500 miles on the car driving to Florida and back (had the car 5 months and put 10,000 miles on it already - in "retirement" mode). The car was super comfortable the entire trip, and a real dream to drive.

More than the CVT, the hardest thing to get used to was the responsive steering. For 2009, the Maxima uses the same 13" steering wheel as the GT-R, and probably as a result of the small wheel, steering is super responsive. But after 5 months, it too feels second nature.

This was the second long distance trip we took the car on, but we didn't quite get as good gas mileage - we averaged about 27~28mpg, where the trip a couple months ago, we got closer to 30mpg.

Might be something due to running +80mph. I am not sure, but I am not that concerned about it either.

My 2009 model was redesigned so much from the previous years though, that I am not sure if it is the same car, but since you are wanting used, I have no experience with the older ones. But I suspect, as WetDoggg has elaborated, that they are just as nice.

One major difference I know of is the 2009 model has 290hp, while the older version, I think, is closer to 260hp. The extra 30hp does come at a price - you need to burn premium fuel. But it will do 0-60 in less than 5 seconds; or so I am told.

What has impressed me the most, is that this car is not really that big of a car; and I am a big guy; but the driver and front passenger compartments have a huge amount of room. This is what initially attracted me to the car. I am 6'2", and I bet someone even 6'5" would be comfortable in the car.

However, it suffers a bit in the trunk space. We were only able to cram in two suitcases, a garment bag, and a duffel bag on our trip.

When comparing to our 2001 Pontiac Grand Prix, there was definitely less room in the trunk as well as the rear seat. In the Grand Prix, we could fit three adults as long as they were not too big. In our Maxima, its pretty hard for 3 adults to fit in the rear seat - at least for any more than short trips. But the Maxima has significantly more front seat room than the Grand Prix did.

I do have a couple of minor issues with the car, mostly with the audio and nav systems, but mostly because its a bit brain dead. I think the liability lawyers are out of control at Nissan as many of the audio and nav functions are disabled unless the car is at a stop. For instance, you can look up nearby hotels on the Nav system, but you can only view the top 5 while you are moving. You have to pull over to the side of the road to see the entire list. If you are on the highway, I can see that as more of a hazard than simply being able to view the entire list.

Same thing with the audio system; you cannot scroll through all of the music unless you are stopped.

And even worse; you cannot manually dial the cell phone via the Bluetooth interface when the car is moving - you can only access names in the phone book to dial. But I have found a work-around around for this; I can simply dial the number from the phone itself.

You even have to punch "OK" to a disclaimer every time you start the car before you can use the nav system - that is the most annoying.

I guess Nissan never thought that the front seat passenger might want to control the nav system... Afterall, the car automatically detects whether or not there is an adult occupant in the front passenger seat to turn the passenger air bag off or on, so why cannot that detector turn off the lawyer crap in the nav system too?

I have found an aftermarket company that makes devices to jailbreak the nav and audio system, but I really have to give Nissan a negative mark for this though.

That is about the only negative, and really, its a minor thing I suppose in the overall scheme of things.

Regardless, you would find out if it was for you or not when you test drive one, but I suspect you will find that the car behaves quite nicely.

The Admiral in on her 2nd Murano, both with CVT trannies. She put over 70K miles on the 1st one in around 7 years, and never had a problem. She is hard on cars (lead foot, never coasts, always on the gas or brake, shifts into forward while the car is still going backwards, etc) but the transmission help up fine (I didn't think it would last 50K). The Murano is a great car, but I personally can't stand the styling (pretty friggin close to a minivan).

As long as we've taken a Nissan detour, I'll throw in for the Pathfinder as well.

My first went 100k with no (none) problems, my second one is at 65k with no (none) problems, just routine maint. on both. No rattles, no rust, no issues.

I love the visibility, seating is good, and the ride is more car-like than truck-like. Recent V-6's are 4.0 L. and strong. And if you wanna be a hot-shoe, find one with a V-8.

I agree on the CVT once you get used to it under normal driving it's a non issue. Now as Al said and Wetdogg might agree when you step on it it will hold a high RPM until you let off. This has almost gotten me in trouble a couple of times. I have learned to set the cruise below 80 mph now out of Ohio and 75 mph in Ohio.
We will be taking the car to Florida in March and looking forward not driving a BIG SUV for once.
The only problem I have seen is that we only get 21 - 24 mpg based on it being the Admirals heavy right foot. Currently the car has 47K and should make it to the lease turn in right about 58.5K in July.

Regarding the use of premium fuel--when I bought GW's G35X it called for premium. I ran several tanks through it to check the mileage. It was right at 20. I then tried regular unleaded for several tanks and guess what--the mileage was right at 20.

My son is a GM tech so I asked him about it. He said as long as you burn good gas (I use only Shell) the computer will make accomodations for whatever fuel you use in it. I've been running her car on regular ever since.

When I got my BMW 330i I did the same thing. The first three tanks of premium gave us 20.3mpg combined in town and highway driving. I then switched to regular unleaded and the mileage for the past 2 tanks has been 20.6 & 20.7. Go figure???

IMHO, if the mpg stays the same, my cost per mile has decreased from about 15.32 cents per mile to about 14.03 cents per mile. Now much of a savings is that? About $150 per car per year. Not a LOT of money, but every bit of money I can keep in my pocket rather than give it to the gas station works for me.

Wifes car is a 2004 525i that currently has about 57k on it & has never used anything but regular since the day it was new. It has averaged 26 mpg. Been a very good car. Lots of room & great on the road.

GFC;

My manual does say that regular can be used in a pinch, but for full performance, they recommend premium. Kind of funny, but the manual says "avoid full-throttle driving" when not using premium.

My wife's 2008 CTS-4 just turned the clock to 41k on a recent trip to the mountains in Murphy, NC. We bought this car new, and the hits are the performance, handling and AWD system. They are spot on. The 3.6L DI engine has a no need for premium fuel, and makes over 300HP on 87 octane. The oversized-brakes are more than capable, the 6-speed auto/sport/manual trans is seemless and even has automatic engine braking on long declines.

Misses are noteworthy too. Timing chains are stretching prematurely, causing cam/crank sensor correlation problems. Warranty covers them, and they will probably not make it out of warranty without new chains anyway. The front brakes with the heavy duty J55 option use only semi-metallic pads. They function great, but the wheels turn black in about a week with my wife driving. Front rotors are ENORMOUS though. I don't like where Caddy placed the DIC - not too ergonomical. Interior could stand a little more room. I also don't like how GM bundles options together. You should be able to pick your options seperately.

When Cadillac replaced the timing chains, they gave my wife an Acura TL as a loaner. She hated it.

I will say, that in non-typical GM fashion, after 40K miles it rides, drives and is as quiet as it was when we drove it off the showroom floor.

A- to B+

Thanks, all. This is good info. I'll have to take a look at the Maxima again. If i go that route, it will be the newer body style.
I also like the CTS4, but they are just so pricey out of the hole, not many slightly used ones around. And driving 25k+ a year, it doesn't do me good to drive an expensive car as they lose thier value quickly.

My FIL just picked up a brand new 2009 G37 Journey RWD yesterday for $28,800. 328 HP. 0-60 in the 5 sec range. Great handling and the reliability ratings by consumer reports are through the roof. This has to be the best value in the sports sedan category

[quote=cny boater

When Cadillac replaced the timing chains, they gave my wife an Acura TL as a loaner. She hated it.

[/quote]

Well so much for my .02
I bought an 08' TL two years ago and with 45,000 miles on clock, I have had zero issues. Rides nice, it's quiet, and gets great gas mileage (about 30-31 mpg highway). It's a little tight in the back seat for four passengers but most of the time it's just me. It's not a speed demon, the gearing favors gas mileage over accelleration for sure. When I bought this car the runner up was an 08' G35x. I went with the TL due to better gas mileage and I was able to get the TL for 4k less the the G. I really have to watch what I spend on cars too, I put so many miles on them in a short time that they get "road rashed" and depreciate quickly.
I traded an 03' Maxima with well over 100k on it and loved that car, it was just time for a new one. That was my third Maxima that I put over 100k on and I loved every one of them, no issues at all. Never had one with the CVT though so I can't say anything about that.

I don't think you can go wrong with a gently used 07'+ TL. BTW, they changed the body style in 09' - should make an 08' or earlier even more of a bargain.

Keith,

Just because my wife doesn't like a TL certainly doesn't mean they aren't nice cars! Acura makes some of the finest cars out there, IMO.

I didn't mean to sound defensive CNY, I meant that kinda "tongue in cheek".

Nice wording, implies they are cool with "full-throttle driving" w/ premium! The comment jives with my understanding though. The high octane fuel with its higher compression flash point is to keep the car from pinging under hard acceleration in high compression engines. Under normal driving the computer can compensate enough to prevent this. Younger drivers may have never heard pinging before due to on board computers, but I remember it in some late 70's early 80's cars.

Not to derail the thread too much but...
http://www.chuckegg.com/does-my-car-really-need-premium-gas-octane/
...not saying Chuckie is an expert, I just picked this one b/c it summed up most of what I've read/heard.

It's interesting how many people think their car will actually run better on premium or higher octane gas. Of course the gas companies like for you to think this way.

The only reason to buy higher octane gas is to keep your engine from pinging or detonating - of course most all modern cars have knock sensors that keep the car from pinging anyway. This means that most cars can run on any gas, however if the knock sensor indicates pinging, it will adjust the spark, so you might not have optimum power. The early knock/ignition systems were not very subtle - you would instantly have no horsepower - and it always happened at the most inopportune time, but newer ones have much more precision, so you can't even tell.

I suppose there is a possibility of a single detonation destroying your engine, but that is slight. Detonation generally only occurs under very heavy load or in certain temperature conditions, so even most cars that need premium don't really need it under most driving conditions.

CNY do you see very many detonation damaged engines these days?

Nope. The last one was actually a 6.0L Silverado that had an aftermarket remote starter installed. The tach sense wire T-tapped into one of the coils corroded and altered the timing on one cylinder only.

Detonation is something that is all but extinct on newer model cars.

Engine management has made HUGE gains in the last 15 years. We hardly ever even clean a throttle body anymore.

I have a 750HP Buick GS that I buy race gas for. I tried to explain to my early-teen son about octane, compression ratios and detonation, when it had occurred to me that he probably has never heard detonation before. The lesson apparently fell on deaf ears, as I watched him snitch a quart of 110 for his 4-wheeler a couple of days later.

Thought of another cool car you may want to look at. A Subaru WRX would be a lot of fun.

Yep!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYKPaL2A1Hc

Thought about the WRX. I test drove an outback a little while ago, uncomfortable seating, for me. I didn't even look at the impreza based models.

Premium fuel doesn't bother me. I have a company gas card and I run 89 to 91 octane now. The car warrants 91, but I can get away with 89. 87, that's a no-no. The car will fall on its face with the lower octane. It seems to limit its boost/timing with lower octane. That car needs its boost to make power. Anyway, everyone else drives full size trucks/SUVs so my extra 15 cents a gallon goes well unnoticed.

CNY and other in the know car people, what's the word on the VW TDI? In general the big one, V10. I might have a line on a used one with low miles, out of this area. I guess new they weren't sold in Mass?? Worries me that a couple of ads I saw mentioned replacement of turbos at like 50k miles.
These things are pricey but if I can get a lot of mileage out of one, it would be worth the little extra money and the AWD and the extra tow vehicle.

Impala or Charger, police can not be wrong! Cheap used and hold up well.

WM, I don't have any Toureg expertise. The 4-cyl TDI's have had turbo problems - the wastegates stick and they are not serviceable except by replacing the turbo. I have done a couple of those. Quite spendy!

That seems to be the general consensus, spendy. The big V10 must be pulled out of the truck to get to the turbo if it fails. This doesn't seem to be much an issue on the 06 and newer. Between that and the brake replacement every 20k and tires lasting about 25k, it doesn't seem worth the effort. Oh well, the search continues. Thanks for the info.

So I looked at a Touareg V10 diesel. These trucks are a little bigger than they look on paper. If anyone is looking for a tow vehicle for thier boat and want a diesel SUV, you may do some hunting for one of these things. 310hp and 550ftlbs powered V-dub. I think it is too big for my needs, and can't see how something that strong can get the fuel mileage most say they do. Well, they might, but my right foot is fairly well controlled by a fun factor. It wouldn't work well for me, but wow is that power addicting.
Search continues....

Any word on Audi reliability?

Yes, the newer ones seem to hold thier own. The most questionable is the A8 for some reason. I would figure they'd all share a lot of the same electronics, but the v8 seems to carry some issues.
I looked at a, dare i say it, Wagon from VW. It was the Passat with a 3.6 and 4motion. I was pretty impressed with fit and finish and overall quality, but didn't drive it. It was a low mile used as you can't get the v6 anymore i'm told. Not sure why I'd spend the extra 5-10k on the 4 rings when the people's car isn't much different.

I'll second the uncomfortable seats in the Subaru Outback. The admiral has an '07 LL Bean edition. Leather, heated seats. My arse goes numb after an hour or two on long drives. Fortunately, the admiral has a small bladder so I can get out of the car every couple of hours. The car handles and drives really well, though and my wife loves it. My arse is a little older than the admiral's, so that might account for some of the difference.

Mileage is not great. ~25mpg on the highway and 20 around town. It has the boxer 6 and according to owner's manual, the label inside the gas fill door and my wife, it requires premium. Unbeknown to her, I filled it with mid-grade on a recent trip from Washington D.C. back to Athens. I got 26.4 mpg vs 24.9 with premium.

Jeep Grand Cherokee with the Hemi and Quadradrive II (full time 2 speed transfer case and electronic locking front and rear differentials) if you are in Mass it's the ultimate snow machine...I can go where plow trucks get stuck and it tows great too...yes not as refined as the Japanese and European competition but due to weak resale a 2 year old one certified is a great deal (paid less for our 07 Limited Hemi this summer than I paid for the 98 Laredo when it was new 12 years ago).....

and on the Toureg a neighbor had one when they first came out and it was in the shop way more than my 98 Jeep ever was for those who won't consider Detroit anymore...constant problems with the air suspension which of course is probably past history now....

As my other thread states, having issues with my car again, so I may be back in the market.
Looked at a few offerings this weekend.
Dodge Challenger RT - interesting car no doubt. Feasible for me, well, RWD, questionable fuel mileage, two door, lack of options. May not be the best choice for me, but I it would be a fun weekend driver.
Buick LaCrosse - GM really stepped up with this car. I'll get one in 10 or 15 years.
Nissan Maxima - WOW. Wasn't sure about the CVT based on others I have driven. This one makes a fun driver. Powerful, smooth, quiet, powerful, definitely would be high on my OK to purchase. But the down sides, the one I looked at had the dual sunroof with the automatic shades. You can't open the sunroof without opening the shades. I like to drive with my sunroof crack up and the shade pretty much closed. As soon as you open the shades, the front and back both open, my kid would hate that. The standard sunroof would have to be the better option, for me.
Seats, I have more vertical than Horizontal, the seats fit too loose. I like a snug sport seat, thier sport styled seat is more a bench, IMO. And ventilated seat for the driver only??
Stereo, top of the offering Bose system still lacks a bit, IMO. Coming from the Harmon Kardon system in my current car, it still proves to be the judging point.
Paddle shifters, finished in a beautiful faux plastic silver. Why make them stand out?
As you can see, my down sides are nit picky and probably adjustable to different options. I still find this car about the best I've looked at. Given I can find a used low mileage specimen for much much less than new, that's the route I'd probably take with this one.

Thanks for reading my ramblings.

IncoherentMutt

Mutt:

I know you’re a bit anti-Toyota but a value vehicle to look at my be a new 2010 Avalon.

It’s not the most sporty vehicle in terms of handling but it’s not bad either. The 270hp 6-speed auto and slotted shifter can move. It gets about 30mpg (rated 28) on the highway in cruise between 70-75mph. And it’s a sizeable car! Tons of room in the back seat.

At any rate, a new 2011 model on its way to the show rooms in a month. Given the gas-pedal freakout, it has slowed the selling of existing inventory.

My Grandma (she’s 58) just traded in their 2007 (lease) on a 2010 (purchase). Purchase price for a completely optioned limited was right around $28k. That’s pretty cheap considering the car. It’s not the best but most other offerings in the size range are $7k more. Are they really $7k better?

Food for thought.

Another vehicle: 2011 Taurus SHO. 350 something horsepower. $35k.

Thanks. You know, my practical side keeps popping through and says to get a wagon. So I drove through the Toyota dealership as well. My parents bought a Venza about a year ago and love it and it would really fit the practical side of things. They had no Avalons nor Venzas on the lot that I could find. Mostly Camry, Corolla, and a couple of thier SUV offerings. It's a sign, I know it...
I'll check into the Avalon, thanks.

If you're thinking that way, have you considered Honda Odyssey? One of the most awesome vehicles on the road IMO.

While I would agree the Odyssey is a good vehicle, we've just gone from sport sedan to mini-van. Too far, crossed a line...

Wagon...

Another would be the Honda Crosstour although I think it may be too small and perhaps not sporty enough. Then again the Venza is the same size as the Crosstour. The Avalon is considerably bigger in terms of interior volume and total length.

Did you look at the Acura TL? A used one perhaps? Another would be the Taurus non-SHO. It's still 270hp....

On the Avalon subject, I know two people with them who state they are great cars. I saw a new one the other day at the dealership - very nice looking IMO - they seem large.

I've been on the Toy. website a lot lately looking at 4Rs, there's a promo on 2010 Avalons. http://chicago.buyatoyota.com/Specials/specialOffersDisplay.aspx?seriesname=Avalon

As D. sez, the 2011's are announced http://www.toyota.com/upcoming-vehicles/

If I wanted a nice 4 dr sedan, it'd for sure be on my list. I would not be the least bit afraid to buy one.

I just went through this exact search!! Looked at the infinitis, Acura, maxima, even Lexus is350, and so forth. I wanted awd drive because of weather. I also wanted lots of tech, Bluetooth, bluetooth music, seamless intergation with my phone and in dash nav. Also wanted sporty but useable back seat and big trunk since I sold my Expy. didn't want new but wanted current styling. THE ANSWER:

'06 Audi A6 quattro with 4.2L Just under $25k. Love this thing. It hauls a$$. Super comfortable. Great technology. And was a beast in all the snow we had. Maybe even better than my expy!! It's the most beautiful interior at night. The car sold new for $58k!!! It's certified so full warranty for 2 more years or 60k miles. I love it. Go drive and Audi. I think they are some of the best looking new cars on the road. Their LED driving lights are sweet. Quite frankly u think BMW is just too stark and dull inside.

i just looked at a VW CC last night. I really liked it, little tight in the rear seat for me, but the only time I wouldn't be driving is if I were drunk or tied up in the trunk, so it doesn't really matter.
I did check out the Audi, but found nothing like that type of deal. VW is not quite as pretentious looking as the 4-rings, and that can play out for my customers. Awesome car you have there. What type of mileage do you get?

Drove the VW CC too. I really like the styling but it was a little tight like you say and only 2 person back seat. I need the occasional 3rd spot for a small kid. Also didn't like that it didn't have a sunroof that actually retracted and the awd version was ridiculously priced.

I paid $24,500 not including sales tax. It had 39k miles on it. All options, heated steering wheel (which is AWESOME), adaptive headlights, heated seats front and back, and I really like its MMI interface to control everything. heating/cooling controls are separate so you don't need to navigate menus to change the temp like the bmw's. I also love the smart key that never has to leave my pocket. Just push a button and go. And the doors unlock when I get close. Also syncs all my contacts with my iphone and and has voice activated everything. Its a [censored] technological dream.

I have average 20 mpg when driving normaly city/highway. When I decide to run it I got around 18. All of which bests my Expy alot. I am saving over $100 month in gas!

I did a little digging last night. I found a few a6 4.2's, decently priced. One was an s-line, called and it was already sold.
I think I'll go look at one this weekend if I can find one close.
Thanks

BMW heating is with a knob for each side (not iDrive) but yes Audi has come a long way and the Quattro was the real break through.
A heated steering wheel I had on an older 05 BMW and it was great.

Congrats on the A6 and keep on looking for THE car for you.

h

Nice car...Audis have really come a long way...as has VW...the only thing there I don't like...is the shiney trim on the steering wheel that can reflect the sun in your eyes...

I'm a Jeep fan myself and have been enjoying a pre owned one....decent prices on used ones let you reduce the pain of the depreciation game...and....the Hemi sure is fun...SUV practicality with muscle car acceleration....

Speaking of the Quattro system..of which I was always a big fan...Jeep's Quadradrive II works extremely well...with an electronic full time transfer case (including low range) and electonically controlled front and rear differentials that can vary from full open to locked when needed...the system works just great in snow...I was used to the mechanical Selectrac system in my 98 which also works well but takes more understanding on the part of the driver...all manufacturers seem to be going to mostly all automatic 4x4 systems...Audi had Quattro back in 1980 if I remember right and was way ahead of its time...so was Subaru...and for those of you who remember...Jeep had the full time Warner Quadratrac in 1973 way ahead of everyone else...the AMC Eagle was the first all wheel drive passenger car widely available...it had a single speed version of the Warner Quadratrac...

Lou ... the A6 4.2L (which is a V8) puts out about the same power/torque as your Hemi (350hp/330ft-lbs at 3000rpms)....

Yeah D Rod it does...but can you do a tune up on it yourself...I'm a Mopar man so while I like the German cars because of their great driving qualities the high cost of parts and difficult repairability keeps me with the domestic products...my younger brother has a number of German cars (2 Porche 911s...a Cayenne...and an Audi All Road that one of his daughters drives) and he likes them but he doesn't do any work on them himself...but now and then he will call me with a repair estimate to see if it's fair or not...

The All Road only came with the 2.7T i beleive which really wasn't an engine that Audi heralded itself over.
The nice thing about the Hemi over the Audi is the cylinder de-activation. I don't know if that is in the SUVs like the cars, but for whatever reason it seems to work decently.
I actually looked at a Challenger R/T. While it would suit me nicely, it really wouldn't fit my needs.

I was provided with some interesting numbers by someone in respects to the Audi 4.2 vs 3.2. Not as much difference in performance as you'd think, on paper anyway.

Nope. Which is exact why the Cadallic CTS (3.6L), Camaro, Ford 3.5L engines in the Taurus, Edge and soon to be F150, etc are going to mid-3 liter V6 engines. Less loss (pumping, friction, rotating mass), plenty of power, cheaper, and lighter weight which does effect handling.

Any car that can jet to 60mph in less than 7 seconds is about as fast as general everyday streets can handle. It’s not like we have autobans in America were we can run up to the 120/130mph limits of the vehicles were more than 270hp is needed.

What's your nope to, the deactivation? I guess i should have qualified my statement of working decently to being a seemless operation. I have no experience in whether it does what it is supposed to do for efficiency.
The only problem I see with newer engines coming out is not many using Turbo chargers. That is the best way available, IMO, to make efficient hp. Why even have a 3.5 v6 when you can get the same power out of a low 2 liter 4cyl turbo.

Cost. Material strength needed on the little 4 is much higher than a mid-size V6.

A lot has been done with continuous varying intake and exhaust valves coupled with direct injection to better control the combustion for max efficiency at most throttle conditions but turning it up hot (power wise) when pushed. The bore/stroke setup in these mid-size V6 is optimal. And face it. These engines produce a legit 270-300hp (that’s a lot of power folks) with good torque. Put the right CVT or 6-speed auto with the right gearing setup and you have dam efficient (compared to a couple years ago), power, but CHEAP engine. No/little forged parts. Only a small amount of parts have to deal with high temperature tolerances (exhaust) compared to turbos, and no expensive, tight tolerance turbo (with lag) to use. Twin-turbos completely defeat the point of a turbo. Variable vane works but is a bit limited in how much it can vary without crazy cost and efficiency loss.

I'll take more than 270 hp. One of my cars has a straight 6 making around 475HP (411 to the wheels), which is about adequate in my book.

Why do you say twin turbos defeat the point of a turbo? If you have a V configuration motor, you really need to go the twin route. Intake and exhaust plumbing get messy and complicated if you don't.

A twin turbo is like running a supercharger, no real benefit to overall economy.
You're telling me a VVT engine is not as complex as a standard engine with a Turbo? C'mon. And how much does VVT really give you in varying the torque curve? I know I use this example, but it is the best i know off hand. My 2.3liter turbo hits its peak torque of 258ftlbs at 1900 rpm and holds that till around 4500. Hp peaks at 250 around 5200 i beleive it is.
And the bore/stroke ratio is optimal for what? high end hp, low end torque?
I just see a smaller 4 with a turbo being more efficient with less rotating mass, less overall weight, and in general a higher operating efficiency, especially when you add an after/intercooler.
And turbo lag/spool up is not as bad a problem as it used to be. Does it exist? yes, but once the turbo boosts, that little bit of lag is made up pretty quickly.

We'll just have to disagree on that one.

Why would twin turbos have lower fuel economy than a single turbo?

Turbo lag really is a non-issue these days. A BMW 335 feels very much like a normally aspirated car. To accomplish it, the turbos are undersized IMO, and run out of breath at high rpms, but 99% of buyers probably don't care.

I love the low end torque of a V8. The sixes ar fine but the 8 is better.
Why did BMW move away from the twin turbo in their 2010 line up?
The new 35 engine is a single turbo one.

h

power - I'm not sure about the move to the single turbo. As successful as the twin turbo motor has been, I'm surprised they changed it. My guess would be cost savings. BMW should have probably figured out a way to build fuel pumps that don't fail instead of redesigning the turbo(s).

Ironically, the 335 motor has more torque than the V8 available in the M3. The turbo 6 is actually the better motor for day to day driving, although the V8 is fun to wind out past 8K rpms. Both are great motors though.

There is nothing like the low end torque of a V-8 but I have to say these new high tech V-6s are very impressive...for what it's worth...the MDS (cylinder deactivation) works GREAT on the Hemis...you can't feel it...and if you drive conservatively...our 07 Grand with the Hemi gets close to the same fuel economy as our 98 with the six....both get about 13 around town and 18 on the highway...but naturally if you USE the power of the Hemi all the time you can get down to 9 mpg without any trouble!!
I don't think the fuel consumption on this engine is bad for a vehicle that weights close to 4600 lbs and can tow 7200 lbs....and has a 4x4 system second to none....yes the Diesel would be nice with close to 30 per cent better fuel economy...but for fun I checked some of the parts prices for the diesel specific stuff....and it's way way more than for the gas engine...if fuel was as expensive as in Europe...yes then it would make sense....

and there is one more thing about these new Hemis...if you hear a vid of an original 426 Hemi idling...there is certain hard to describe sound...and the new ones also have that sound...quieter...smoother...but the same sound...most modern vehicles are too refined to be fun to me...the modern Hemis have a bit of the musclecar past...which people my age love because when we were growing up...the street Hemi was the ultimate....sold only because Mr.Bill France (boss of NASCAR) said ChryCO had to sell it to run it in NASCAR...and the original Hemi design...still dominates drag racing in top fuel and funny car...

Well, pretty much sealed the deal last night. Found something that is a great deal and they gave me book on my car (seems to be rare these days).
I let my emotional side get a say, but left the major decision making to my sensible side.
So, the new MuttRide looks like it will be an 08 Saab 9-3 Aero SportCombi (special way of saying wagon) 6-spd. I wanted a wagon for the dog and the kid's stuff when we travel and such. This fits the bill. I haven't had a four wheeled manual in a few years, and found this one a little hard to get used to as it is difficult to hear the engine. Still holds the factory warranty of 5yr100k powertrain, 4yr50k b-to-b, and 3yr36k maint.

Not quite the power of the Dodge Magnum Hemi I looked at, but handles better and does a lot better on fuel. The only other vehicle I found that comes close to this is the Passat wagon, but they are a bit rare, and you need the v-6 to get the same power, and then they are mostly awd and that seems to kill the fuel mileage as well, and then there's the VW req'd maint. All in all, this car suits me pretty well. Now if Saab just doesn't go under...

Nice choice. I fondly remember owning two SAABs, a 900T and a 900SPG - fun cars to drive (after I learned to left-foot brake to build boost).

Do they still put the ignition key in a stupid place?

No, no, this one is on the console where everything falls into it and a keychain any larger than a paperclip rattles.

They still insist on providing only one cup holder in the front as well. A little inconvenient, but not for the driver.

Yes, they're quirky, but I have found nothing i like better...