I wasn't aware that VW was getting back into the minivan business until I saw an ad for this new vehicle.

It suspiciously looks like a rebadged Honda Odyssey, which my better half drives. Just a brief glance at the option list shows everything that our Touring model has.

I know it's a "minivan", but does anyone have the scoop?

http://www.vw.com/routan/en/us/

Ha!

I answered my own question.

After reviewing the specs, I noticed familiar engines listed.

A search revealed that the new Routan IS a rebadged existing vehicle.

But not the Odyssey.

The Chrysler/Dodge minivan!

There's a twist for ya!

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/02/06/chicago-2008-volkswagen-unveils-the-newish-routan-minivan/

That's a really good rebadge job - it certainly doesn't look like a Dodge van and does look like a VW.

I agree Indy, that is the best rebadge I have ever seen! I'm not sure I would have ever guessed it was a Dodge. The shape of the glass, sort of is the same, but wow, everything else is different! Nice job Chrysler/VW!!!

Interesting. When I looked at the pic in the first link it looked to me like a Chrysler product. Then I found out it is/was a Chrysler.

I don't think that bit of info will help VW's sales. You can put lipstick on a pig, but nobody still wants to kiss it.

Au Contraire GFC. The Chrysler minivans are the industry standard. Everyone copies what they do. Honda and Toyota try very very hard to make their vans like Chrysler products. I don't see VW using them as a negative at all.

Then how come Chrysler dealers can't sell 'em?

On 2nd thought, Ford F-series are industry standards too, and Ford dealers can't sell those either...

Industry standard ?????? That there is funny.

They can't sell them, because they are not viewed as "economy" vehicle right now. And I have heard that indeed the 3.8 powered Caravans do not get very good mileage. Anyone experience that personally?

Glad you think it's funny, Capn. But ever since they started the minivan segment, Ford, GM, Honda, Toyota, and all the rest have been trying to match them. Some say the Odyssey is the best, but try asking the people that can't keep the transmissions in them. And ask the folks who's driver's door creaks and pops when they open it on their Sienna, but Toyota didn't actually recall it. See what they say.

Chrysler always seems to lead with the innovation of gadgetry on the soccermobiles. A friend of mine had a Chrysler and replaced it with a Honda, there is a big difference in quality, IMO, but i don't drive it everyday. Given they are extremely hard on vehicles, the Chrysler made it to around 70k and now they have 50k on the Honda. The Honda is holding up very well.

As for the VW thing, why?? Why would VW rebadge a Chrysler? Thier vanagon (or whatever it was called) was nice, but very utilitarian. A few upgrades and restyling would have brought that around nicely. If anything, rebadge a Sprinter and give it some nicer features, I'd even be interested in that.

The VW vanagon was originally designed in about 1985 and would never pass crash tests today - even though they sold them until about 2001.

There is nothing wrong with the chrysler minivans. To say their is a "big difference in quality" between Chrysler and Honda is unfair. Honda had quality problems on startup with their minivans, which dropped their overall corporate quality ratings significantly - I think they've fixed most of them over the past couple years.

The Sprinter is a truck and probably wouldn't be appropriate for selling as a passenger van, The driver sits way forward in the cab - like the vanagon.

Why is it unfair? Comparing thier two vehicles, IMO, the Honda is a better vehicle. But you also pay a premium over the Chrysler. The Honda is not without fault, but the amount of problems they had with the Chrysler well outweighed the small issues they have with the Honda. And the Honda has more "systems" to go wrong as well.

They weren't "small issues" on the Hondas. They had problems with power sliding doors. They had transmission issues. They had lots of electronic gremlins. And, no, the Honda doesn't have any more features than a loaded Chrysler. Chrysler has successfully built way more minivans than anybody else - I'm not necessarily a Chrylser fan, but you have to be fair to them.

I guess I should qualify my statement by saying I am comparing thier two vehicles, not the two lines overall. And yes, you are talking a 2002 Chrysler versus a 2006 Honda. Thier Honda has more features than thier T&C had. That's all i am saying.

D_P

Other than feeling like the Chryslers took a step BACKward on the restyle, I'm a fan. I would go drive the new one if in the market.

We had a '96 Caravan for 10 years and 140K Miles. There are lots of things I really loved about the vehicle. I special-ordered an SE trim model and got the HEAVY DUTY SUSPENSION PKG for $140. 3.3 L V6 153 hp. The pkg greatly enhanced the handling compared to any other that I drove - should have been standard on all of them IMHO. Other than a new tranny at 72 K miles, and two alternators, and a host of AC problems I really liked it. Honest.

Paid about $24K in 1996

In 2005 we bought a 2005 Odyssey LX. $25.5 K

Smart money would have been to buy an off lease Chrysler for about $12K, but we are planning to keep the Honda for 10 yrs as well. 255 hp, quicker, better mpg, Handling not really any better than the Caravan with HD stuff. Not any quieter than the Caravan, Not as good on outward visibility, specifically ordered the base model in the Honda because I'm no fan of all the extra electronics and they tend to be the source of lots of problems.

I wish it were quieter. wish it didn't have as much torque steer under heavy throttle. Recent 750 mile trip with 6 adults and gear @ 78 mph was 24.9 mpg for first half. 23.5 for second half with head wind and some stop and go road construction. MPG measured at the pump not a trip computer readout.

Blizzaks for winter traction have been great.

Even though I like VW, I wouldn't buy the VW version of the Chrysler. Same reason I wouldn't buy a "Honda Rodeo" (Isuzu) or a "SAAB 9-7" (Chevy Trailblazer).

After having three Windstar's (talk about being a glutton for punishment), I got my wife a new '05 Odyssey Touring edition (she was used to all of the bells and whistles).

Would I buy another one? No.

I've had Honda m/c's since the late 70's, and currently have four of their off-road bikes. No issues with them.

I've never owned one of their automobiles until now.

Saying that I am disappointed is an understatement.

Wind noise, engine noise, issues with the power sliding doors, trim pieces falling off, broken engine mounts, torque steer (I thought that went away in the 90's?), the annoying de-celleration (practically braking) of the engine when it shuts down cylinders, and the nightmare PAX tire system, just to name a few...

Thank goodness I got the 100K warranty for it, since we planned on keeping it for that amount of miles. It's been used a couple of times already...

Oh yeah... I hated to do it, but I was so disgusted with it that I signed up for the class-action lawsuit against Honda regarding them.

This has been an eye opening thread...

I was going to add that when we were out in Denver in 2006 and drove up to WinterPark to ski, plus a couple of other day trips into the Mts. I was pretty amazed at the Honda tranny. While around town I find it occasionally will try to outsmart me with a downshift coming to a stop that is too noticable, in the Mts, It seemed to know exactly what gear I wanted and WHEN whether running lower gear for grades on the way up or lockout OD for engine braking (on its own). Like it did a quick-study on how I was driving and then said "OK I get it, let's boogie"

Not alot of ground clearance but we were also back on some fire trails and stuff that would have been more SUV appropriate.

AB, Sorry to hear the issues you've had with the Touring. I had to say I was amazed that is was possible to add $13-14K of gadgets to the vehicle.

ABoater, what is the class-action lawsuit? Are you referring to the odometer inaccuracy one? We have the 100k warranty as well, and if I recall the mileage was extended 10% due to a settlement. I have an '05 as well.

We've been happy with our Ody. It's not as cush as the Sienna, but we knew that and liked the handling better as a trade-off. We also like the seats and general cabin feel better. I forget the details but to get seating for 8 we could get that in the Ody model we wanted but not in the specific Sienna model that we would have wanted. It does have torque steer on take-off but so did my Maxima (actually...that was the 90's...'97). I haven't noticed any feel from the cylinder shut-down...we have the EX-L, not the Touring but the same engine. We passed on the Touring b/c of PAX and navigation...navigation was still CD based at the time.

We had a the p/s pump and left front strut replaced under warranty as well as the leather on one front seat (was surprised they went for that under warranty). The original tires lasted 57,500 miles which is ok, but I would rate their traction as fair at best. Replaced with Goodyear Assurance Comfortred, not any quieter but superior traction. I have had to mess w/ the driver's side door trim a few times. The exterior paint and inside plastic seems to scratch pretty easily, and w/ 3 kids and a tight garage, believe me I know. DIY oil changes are a real PIA b/c the oil drain plug is directly over a crossbeam which can make for a real mess as you can't get a tray under it.

We've dealt with 3 different dealers for regular service, recall work and warranty work and have been very pleased with all 3. I'm not a go-go Honda fan, but I gotta say I'm happy, it's comfortable driving it on long trips and my wife absolutely loves it, so that's all that really matters (plus the safety features such as all-around air bags and rating of course). When her sister's Windstar gave up the ghost their family replaced it w/ the identical Ody as ours last fall ('07 version). They had numerous problems w/ their Windstar for years...roadside leaving problems. Trim problems I can handle, just don't leave me by the side of the road.

The transmission was a concern, so far so good, but that is why I paid up for an extended warranty...and really that's not something one should have to worry about when buying a supposedly quality vehicle...but we did.

We replaced a p/s pump as well! And a leather seat cushion. The stitching came loose.

No tranny issues (yet)!

Thankfully, the Odyssey is my wife's car to drive. She tools around town doing errands and deals with the kids and their school/sports activities. She NEEDS a minivan...

When we travel together, we ALWAYS use my Excursion.

I have literally driven her van about a dozen times in the almost 4 years that we have owned it.

Sadly, that is when I notice stuff wrong with it...

The (current) class action lawsuit involves the PAX tire system. PAX was not an option with the Touring when we bought ours, it was part of the package.

You can now get a Touring edition w/o the PAX. It's amazing what a pending lawsuit can do...

I've also heard that they might just discontinue the PAX all together for '09. Maybe wishful thinking???

Our dealer has been excellent throughout this ownership experience. They have maintained the vehicle since we purchased it from them, and have always given us a free rental or shuttle ride even for the basic service.

I made it clear to the attorney that I did not want my dealer harmed in any way from my involvement in the class-action suit. He assured me that it involves HONDA only, and not their dealers.

For further info on the suit, or to contact an attorney, do a google search...

(sadly, there is plenty of info out there)

There was also a class action suit regarding the Odyssey transmissions - which simply weren't durable enough for that heavy a vehicle.

So you've got a vehicle that has:

Bad torque steer
Suspension problems
P/S pump problems
Interior trim problems
A bad tire/wheel system

And yet you think you love it - and you get great service from your dealer.

I have no idea how much I like my dealer on my wife's 2003 Olds Silhouette - because I've never seen him since we bought the car. Virtually no problems in 100,000 miles (if you don't count an electrical short I caused - that we thought was a warranty problem - stupid me)

That's the kind of dealer service I like - none!

Torque steer: Do you really think you can pump 255hp and NOT have torque steer? I can see controlled torque steer in the 90's when we're dealing with 150/170hp V6 engines. But 255hp through front wheel drive and you expect no torque steer? Sigh...I don't think that's a JUST HONDA problem. The only reason the Caravan may not have it as bad is because it's 70+ ponies weaker.

The rest of the issues are far arguments. I still agree that Honda just has a better build quality feel to it. I don't think Honda's 3.5L V6 is as bulletproof as their older 4 bangers used to be. It is smooth, powerful, and rather smart though. But what good are those three things if it's not reliable?

Just a bit more fuel to the fire.

I wouldn't trade our '07 Ody for love or money. I still cannot get over how much power it has and how it handles. But, it is the first year that they've finally put a stout enough transmission in them. Also, we went with the EX for two reasons: we don't like leather interiors, and I wanted nothing to do with PAX.

Overall build quality on it as well as our previous '03 has been flawless. The tranny in the '03 did have to be replaced at 64K miles - nearly 30K miles out of warranty, and zero cost to us including the rental car.

I don't know if you mean me Indy but the transmission issue was for the previous generation, known as 2nd generation, the 2005 was the beginning of 3rd generation. I don't have any P/S or suspension problems, they were fixed when they occurred under warranty. I don't have the PAX tires b/c I specifically avoided them after reading up on them. The torque steering is not a big issue as it only occurs under hard acceleration from a stop that I've noticed, not a big deal in a minivan and its not like it rips the wheel out of your hand. If by interior trim you mean the seats, my issue was the passenger side seat leather seemed to be wearing oddly, a scalloped pattern was developing and again they replaced in no questions under warranty and I was pleasantly surprised it wasn't considered "normal wear and tear". The driver's door trim initially came loose due to a spilled drink making the seal sticky so it pulled off the rubber gasket...still I'm not too impressed w/ how it attaches. I don't expect no problems on a complex item like a car, especially not in the first year of a redesign, but I expect them to be few and fixed. My wife "loves" it b/c of the driving feel, seating flexibility, rear storage well, remote doors, general roominess (like any mini-van) and dependability (66k miles so far).

Like I said, I'm not a go-go Honda fan, I've never cared much for the Accord for example, but I'm happy w/ the Honda. I do think the paint and interior could be more durable. I think the oil change location is ridiculous and would like better protection for the a/c condenser from road debris. I think the fact they would make a vehicle in the year 2005 that would have a speedometer/odometer that is off by 2 mph is incredible. After the dealer service I got from my Isuzu/Olds dealer for the few times I took in my Trooper, I can say, yes I'm happy...love may be strong for me...happy yes.

My in-laws have the Olds Silhouette...was a nice vehicle for the the first 60k...its not so nice after. Same experience my buddy had w/ his Chrysler mini-van, good for 1st 60k. I guess I'll see now that we are in the 60k+ area. I think individual experiences vary a lot w/ all makes and models depending both on the treatment of the car by its owners and on the random chance of the specific day and hour that vehicle was made. I'm happy for anyone that has a good experience with their vehicles. I grew up with Fords and Chevys and have owned both domestics and imports as an adult. As an irrelevant curiosity, as of a few years ago my parents now own a Toyota Camry and a Honda CRV...first time they have owned 2 imports in their lives. I never thought I'd see it. [edit: import "brands"...not sure where they were actually built.]

Of course you can eliminate most torque steer.

Do you know what causes it? Uneven torque delivered to the two front wheels.

Why? Because the drive shafts are unequal length. In a transverse engine front wheel drive vehicle, the transmission is usually on the left side - so the left drive shaft is short and the right drive shaft is longer. If they are made of identical material, the short one would be much stiffer than the long one, and if you have a lot of power, they will twist up unevenely.

So how do you get rid of it? Design the shafts so they flex equally even though they are different lengths. Most vehicles achieve this by putting in an intermediate shaft. Of course then you have problems because the suspension and steering both lengthen and shorten the shafts as you are moving, which reintroduces torque steer.

Not sure why the Honda vans have it, but if they have bad engine mounts that could be a factor.

I have yet to drive a new, high HP front wheel drive vehicle that does not have noticeable torque steer from any manufacture.

If it's so easy and cheap, why isn't Honda the only manufacture with the problem?

I have a feeling it has more to do with tire traction than shafts flexing too much. It's hard to keep solid traction from FWD with that much power shifting weight away from the tires. A little slip by ONE tire causes the same problem....