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#419451 - 07/04/08 10:20 PM
couple of questions about water softener
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LTJG USCGR
Admiral
Registered: 03/25/04
Posts: 3811
Loc: Eastern PA
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We recently moved to an area with moderately hard water (15 GPG). The house originally had a water softener, but it was removed some time ago...probably when it quit, and wasn't replaced because the water isn't terribly bad. However, the appliances/fixtures that use mainly hot water (dishwasher, showers) have buildup that is annoying...especially the dishwasher. THe water softener is undoubtedly taking a beating as well, and it is 15 y.o.
I was thinking of installing a softener, but only on the hot water side. This would alleviate the hard water problems without requiring me to re-plumb a great deal of cold water lines (the ones that shouldn't be softened...like outdoor spigots, drinking water, etc).
1) What considerations/problems do I need to be aware of putting a softener only on the hot water side?
2) I have a 3" PVC vent pipe (to the main sewer line) near where I would put the softener. I am thinking of tapping into it (with a suitable trap) for the brine/purge water. I realize this is not code, but for a few gallons of purge water every 3 or 4 weeks at most, is it a big deal? I do nto have any floor drains, and the main sewer line is clear on the other side of the basement, and I'd have to run quite a lot of pipe if I put the softner near it. The original softener that was there dumped purge water into the sump (!) which I do not want to do.
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2000 Maxum 1900 SR2 4.3EFI 2003 Lincoln Aviator 1998 Audi A6 2.8 Quattro 
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#419481 - 07/05/08 07:02 AM
Re: couple of questions about water softener
[Re: Nu2BoatN]
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Admiral
Registered: 01/14/04
Posts: 1549
Loc: Highland, Michigan
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We've been on well/septic for 5 or so years now, here's my thoughts for you.
Most softeners are plumbed in pretty near the main line into the house. On mine, I have 2 hose bibs that branch off before the softener, and one in the garage after. I do wash my cars with that one generally. If you can put it in early, you don't have to do any replumbing. Odds are that most of your plumbing doesn't branch out until after the hot water heater, so if you can get it in somewhere around there, you'd be set. You plumbing may vary, of course.
Hot water does amplify the hard water effects, no doubt about it. I really think that if your going to soften, you'd get your best results by doing the whole house, minus hoses of course. Most softeners recharge on an on-demand basis. You program in how hard your water is, and the softener knows how many gallons of water it can treat at that level, and recharges when it needs to. If you have not very hard water, the softener will take longer to recharge.
I don't see any problem, code or otherwise, with putting the brine into the sewer. It's not supposed to be good to put it into the septic, but the sewer should be ok. I could be wrong on the sewer thing, and local codes may vary.
Edited by casualboater (07/05/08 07:03 AM)
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1989 Larson DC 190
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#420065 - 07/07/08 07:37 PM
Re: couple of questions about water softener
[Re: 2Suns]
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Admiral
Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 3964
Loc: Stillwater, OK
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Not necessarily. Replacing calcium with salt can be corrosive too. I do not like to use steel piping any more because of other issues, but I doubt any problems would exist with copper. It depends on two issues, how much the RO system takes out, and how far it has to travel. RO systems are a range of filters. The issue with RO is that they are such restrictive filters, they require boosting the pressure to get them to work. Microfiltration, ultrafiltration, and others will remove different levels of contaminants. The biggest problem is that most water treatment outfits do not have the expertise to know how to select the appropriate filter system. Also the way of plumbing is changing. The old ways of running copper and steel are changing. PEX allows the use of a manifold system that has a lot of virtues. Any time I look at a job that requires replacing any lines, I go with PEX. Metropolitan Government of Nashville and Davidson County prepared this information. It also is available on their website at http://www.nashville.gov/water/soft_h2o.htmSoft water is neither healthy nor desirable for drinking! If you were a steam iron or a washing machine it would be great, but we are neither! There are good reasons you should not be drinking soft water! Water is a universal solvent. Most materials, especially metals, are partially soluble in water. If that water is heated or softened it becomes much more aggressive at leaching metals from water lines. Lead in soldered joints and copper in pipe are particularly vulnerable and these are two of the heavy metals which shouldn't be present in significant amounts in your drinking water. WATER HARDNESS Calcium and magnesium are two minerals which make water "hard." Both of these minerals are classed as "contaminants," but that's a poor choice in terminology, for calcium is essential in our diet! A softener merely exchanges one group of non-toxic elements for another group of non-toxic elements. Water hardness is measured either in grains per gallon (GPG) or as calcium hardness in milligrams per liter (mg/l) or parts per million (ppm). GPG is based on calcium hardness. To convert from calcium hardness ppm, just divide by a factor of 17.2 and this gives you hardness in GPG. A soft or slightly hard water has up to 3.5 GPG; moderately hard water runs from 3.5 to 10.5 GPG; and very hard water is greater than 10.5 GPG. If your water is over 7 GPG, you might want to consider a softener just for the laundry. Metro water is on the low side of moderately hard at 4.1 GPG (that is 70 mg/l of calcium hardness. This is an excellent value and highly desirable! Cities which have soft water are having difficulty meeting the new lead standards in tap water. Metro has had none of these difficulties in meeting the new standards! SOFT WATER A soft water is aggressive at leaching metals (like lead) from your lines and faucets. Most faucets are solid brass (with a relatively high lead content) and are chrome plated. This means that if you have soft water, there is a great chance that your initial drawing of cold water will have a higher lead content than normal. Hot or warm water from the tap should never be used for cooking, shortcuts, drinking water, beverages, or infant formula as it could be higher in heavy metals like lead! WATER SOFTENERS Besides making the water more corrosive and aggressive at leaching metals from your lines and fixtures, the zeolite beads from water softening systems may back-siphon into your toilet tanks, and the soft water may attack vital plumbing parts. While supposedly solving one set of problems, the softener could possibly introduce other problems which you may or may not be aware of! A water softener, besides leaching lead and other metals from your plumbing, can increase your sodium intake. In a water softening device hard water flows through synthetic resin beads. Sodium ions (salt) are loosely attached to each bead and the water exchanges hardness ions (calcium and magnesium) for the soft sodium ions. These devices can also be costly to run since they can waste up to 120 gallons for every 1,000 delivered. A water softener is not designed (nor is it effective) to remove lead and other metals, chlorine, taste/odor compounds, nor chlorine by-products. Its purpose is only to make a hard water soft. Water treated to remove chlorine may encourage the formation of black rings in toilet bowls! IN CONCLUSION... Soft water is great for laundry, bathing, steam irons, and auto batteries, but definitely not for anything else. If you are contemplating installing a softener, there are serious questions you should ask: who will test the effectiveness of the softener, how often will these tests be run, and how will my drinking water quality be affected?
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03 Crestliner 2485 LSi 4.3 MPI 63 Newman 15' 01 Dakota Quad Cab 4.7L 08 Taurus  
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#420088 - 07/07/08 08:50 PM
Re: couple of questions about water softener
[Re: seadog]
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Admiral
Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 3964
Loc: Stillwater, OK
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To be honest, I do not deal with home systems too much. I had to review to remember which of the regular filter systems was best for hardness. The order of filtration is RO, nanofiltration(NF), ultrafiltration(UF), and microfiltration(MF). Microfiltration is also the generic term to encompass all systems. Probably the best for hardness is a nanofiltration system. The problem is, most system sold are the ion exchange softening systems because they are cheap and the salesmen can talk people into them. There are some good home water technicians out there, but there are also a lot of snake oil salesmen that use scare tactics on the public. They accuse the municipal water systems of every crime in the books to make people scared enough to buy their products. In trying to find a few nanofiltration systems to give a place to start, I found it hard to get around the snake oil. And a lot of outdated data is used about filtering systems.
Filtering systems have improved so much lately that many new water plants are being built with MF technologies instead of the old filter bed systems, In the right application, they are becoming more efficient. In fact, it is almost getting to where deriving drinking water from the oceans is becoming practical on a large scale. I apologize that I cannot point to a good NF system, but hopefully one of the local water shops will know what is what.
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03 Crestliner 2485 LSi 4.3 MPI 63 Newman 15' 01 Dakota Quad Cab 4.7L 08 Taurus
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#420599 - 07/09/08 05:02 PM
Re: couple of questions about water softener
[Re: seadog]
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LTJG USCGR
Admiral
Registered: 03/25/04
Posts: 3811
Loc: Eastern PA
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Thanks all,
First, I planned on putting the outlet hose into a long piece of vertical PVC prior to a trap...sort of like the washer outlet. I wasn't planning on a direct connection. My wife's grandmother had a softener installed and they plumbed the outlet hose (clear vinyl) directly into the 3" copper main sewage line ABOVE the softener. The hose gets progressively more brown as it goes toward the sewer line...YUK!
Second, I thought about softening the whole house, but it seemed like a waste of softened water (toilets and all), and I don't want to soften the drinking/cooking water or the hoses. I'm too forgetful/lazy to use a bypass.
I'm not convinced the sodium (not salt) in softened water is really a big deal. It is the dissociation of sodium and chloride in water that causes problems with health and corrosion, and softened water contains mainly sodium carbonates, not sodium chloride. I was thinking softening the whole house and then RO for drinking water, but many RO systems waste so much water...something which matters more to me than what the water treatment facility thinks about brine water. Ecologically, I think one matters more than the other.
I've also never heard of any problems with systems that regenerate less than once a week excep tfor maybe salt bridging. If the system measures water flow, and knows the hardness, it will recharge when it needs to...which I wouldn't think would matter...is there a reason why a 3-4 week recharge interval would be a problem?
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2000 Maxum 1900 SR2 4.3EFI 2003 Lincoln Aviator 1998 Audi A6 2.8 Quattro
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#420698 - 07/10/08 05:26 AM
Re: couple of questions about water softener
[Re: Puddle Pirate 2]
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Admiral
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 1207
Loc: Peoria,IL
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I've also never heard of any problems with systems that regenerate less than once a week excep tfor maybe salt bridging. If the system measures water flow, and knows the hardness, it will recharge when it needs to...which I wouldn't think would matter...is there a reason why a 3-4 week recharge interval would be a problem?
As I stated earlier, IMO, 1 week is about as long as I want to see a softener go between regens. What I've seen when you go longer, is the salt first turns to mush, about a mash potato consistency. For whatever reason, once that happens the mushy salt will never dissolve. Now your slowly displaying space in that brine tank where water should be. After a while that mushy salt starts to get hard. Like a rock, hard. We've literally had to chisel it out with hammer drills in the past. If you want to go 3-4 weeks between regens, thats fine but you may have to clean the brine tank on a more than normal basis. If you know your hardness, divide your softener capacity in grains by your hardness in grains. Divide that figure by 70 gallon per person per day. That will give you a close estimation of days between regenerations.
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