I'm looking at 2003-2005 Four Winns 225 Sundowners. A boat I am very much considering is an '03 with a 5.7GXi SX. The newer boats all have the 5.7GXi DPs, and there is an '04 5.0GXi DP. In the 5.7s does the DP over SX make that big of a difference? I really don't see myself doing to much watersports, towing the occasionally skier or tube. We primarily boat on small inland lakes in Indiana, although we might venture onto Lake Michigan occasionally if the conditions/forecast is right.

Re:"...In the 5.7s does the DP over SX make that big of a difference?..."


Yes.

There is an '03 5.7GXi SX, and an '04 5.0GXi DP at the same dealer I'm looking at...

I'm assuming the 225 is a bit of a heavy boat so the DP might be a nice addition. If you're ok with the money, I would go that way.

I forgot to state, there really isn't a major price difference. The asking price of the '03 is $4000 less than that of the '04, and there are a few boats out east I'm looking at that both have 5.7GXi DPs that are less....

DP is superior to SX in terms of slower planing speeds, able to get to plane faster, and being able to turn in reverse. Other than that, they are the same.

(DP all the way in that boat, for me)

I wish I had a DP but the deal on my current boat was too good to pass up. I would strongly prefer it on my next boat but again if I find a great deal on a boat without it I wouldn't hesitate to buy it. I would consider it as one of many factors and not necessarily a deal breaker.

To answer your question: ALL other things being equal, I'd take one year newer and DP.

For anything other than TOP TOP speed -- go DP -- having had DP for about two years now - and a single prop for 25years --- the planing and slow speed maneuvering and backing are great. especially as the boat gets larger -- Go DP

Fuel consumption is slightly less too.

But having to repair 2 props instead of one when you make a boo-boo sort of sucks.

As stated, unless you NEED that 1-2mph on the top end, the DP is a more controllable boat.

The 1, maybe 2 mph top speed increase generally is found at speeds over 60mph.

For the speed range these boats will be traveling, I doubt you will notice any speed increase with a single-prop over dual props.

The Volvo twin props are a little better than Merc's. I forget the exact number, but they're like 5% more efficient with a patented design or something to that effect.

My 2c is DP or trim tabs. Plenty of boats have a single prop and you won't have trouble getting going with a single powered by a 5.7L. It is a cuddy though so you will tend to have more passenger weight towards the rear so slow speed could be an issue without tabs.

How fast do you like to cruise? Do you fire it up and buzz over to a swim spot or like to tour the lake around 20mph? If the first and money is any issue the single will be fine.

You already mentioned watersports is not that big of a deal for you and besides, w/ the 5.7L your holeshot will be fine. Again, get some tabs...either standard or smart tabs if low speed planing for tubing or wakeboarding is an issue. They will also help your low speed bow wander.

Perfect world?...I would take the DP too, but I don't know if I'd swap a 5.7L for a 5.0L for it even if it was a year newer and pay $4k for the privilege.

I had a 5.0L GSi/SX on my 1999 Sundowner 225 and a 5.7L GSi/DP on my 1999 Vista 268.

I guess then, I have actual experience with both drives, and the SX with the 225; albeit with a smaller engine. Forget trim tabs, it isn't needed on that boat, at least with the Stable-Vee 2 hull. Later models (2003 and later), I think had the Stable-Vee 3 hull, and I cannot vouch for those.

When we took the 225 for its delivery cruise (I bought it new, then traded it later for the Vista), the dealer had me do tight figure 8 turns at 35mph, and the wife had to hold on real tight in the back seat to keep from going out of the boat. The boat had a lot of lateral bite into the water, and incredibly tracked as true as can be, and there was no appreciable heeling. I was completely amazed.

The boat does have a bit of low speed bow wander, which is typical of I/Os, but so did my Vista with DP. I didn't really notice any more bow wander with the Sundowner. My worst boat bow wander wise was my 18ft Rinker. I think bow wander might be less of a problem as you increase size.

With my Carver, having twin engines and inboards, I have absolutely no bow wander, but I do have wind wander!!!

Any difference was marginal at best between the SX and DP. Of course, if I had the SX on the Vista, it might have behaved a bit different, but the SX, even with the EFI 5.0L was a pretty good performing boat.

One advantage of the SX is that it is easier to change out props, and if you plan on boating in different areas with unknown waters, an aluminum prop on the SX is going to be much less painful if you hit something.

While the DP looks cool, I really don't think it will make much difference on the 225. Buy the 225 that you like the best, regardless of whether it has the SX or DP. Of course, if the boat has a DP and is the same price, well thats great, but don't discount the SX or make it a show stopper if it doesn't have a DP.

For example, I'd take a carburated 5.7L SX engine on a 225 any day over a 5.0L EFI/DP.

Here was my Sundowner:



I actually kind of miss that boat - it was quite nice.

What influences bow wander other than single vs. duo prop? My current boat with an SX doesn't wander at all, but I've driven larger boats with (single) Bravo 3s/Volvo DPs that wander badly.

After all the boat's I've owned, I've come to the conclusion that bow wander has nothing to do with the drive, and everything to do with the shape of the boat's hull. I've only owned 2 boats that didn't wander, and I STILL own them--the houseboat and the pontoon boat. Every other boat I've owned, regardless of drive - twins, singles, jet, outboard and duoprop - not a one of them would just go straight at idle speed.

As for the topic at hand, I agree with everyone else, DP would be preferable to a single prop!

I think it mostly has to do with the deadrise and balance. If you think of it, if you try to balance a razor blade on a table, it won't stay in place. But if you balance a cup, its pretty easy.

These are the extreme examples of a flat and vee bottom, but you get the idea.

Don't know if that is correct or not, but thats my theory.

My Carver on the other hand has engines in the middle of the boat, so I think while it has a decent 16 deg deadrise for a 32ft boat, the center of gravity in the middle seems to help a lot.

But I never had an outboard that wandered either - but every one of those boats had a shallow deadrise. So maybe its a combination of all of the above. I bet each boat has its own characteristic - at least all of my boats did.

Even my Vista had some bow wander, but I found that a lot of time, it was because I had the trim tabs set to keep the boat level under plane, but at no-wake speed, one side had more drag than the other - so run the tabs up when you are at no-wake if you have them. That might also help.

Its a bit annoying to begin with, but you get used to it. Except the Rinker, the bow wander was so bad it was hard to dock the boat.

It seems there is no right answer. Part of what I'm factoring in is the cost of replacement props on a DP, about $1500. I kept the SS Michigan Wheel prop off my SR, I'm a step ahead with the SX if it's the proper pitch. Comparing the bigger engine with the SX to a smaller engine with the DP is hard though, there is only a difference of 10HP between the two. Top speed is of a bit of concern to me, although I rarely go full WOT due to increased engine wear. I have yet to drive a boat with a DP, only a single prop so far.

Don't forget that it's important to remove those dual props every year to grease the prop shaft, if you don't it can be a real pain to get them off from what I hear. In the waters I boat in (salt and some rocks!) I prefer a single prop, and an aluminum one at that to cut down on both galvinisim and potential impact damage to the drive. Just carry spares!

Your DOA if you damage your props on a DP drive, correct?

DP replacement props can be had for most sets @ $800 or less NIB - I have a set of F8's that I picked up on EBay new for $540
w/ shipping.

You would also need to have a specail DP wrench with you to swap out the set.

You can convert an SX to a DP - if you find a great deal on a boat with an SX, it may be viable soultion.

Only if they are damaged so bad that the boat shakes to bad to run it. And you might be DOA in an SX with the same damage, cause you'd want to have the drive checked just the same to make sure you didn't break anything else.
All you "aluminum props save the rest of the drive" guys, it's an urban legend at best. Also, some VP DP hubs have rubber hubs, so they would "give" the same as an aluminum with a rubber hub. Oh, and there are aluminum DP propsets out there. Not sure what the letter is, but there is a whole series of them.

Here is some essential information you may want to look at regarding engine selection:

Four Winns Fast Facts

Its a set of detailed specifications Four Winns dealers have, and I pulled out the one for a 2004 225.

The performance section provides detailed information for all of the engine combinations you are considering, cruise efficienty, top speed, and so on.

I found that the 1999 edition performance data was pretty close for my Sundowner, and sort of close for my Vista, which I think was due to having bottom paint on the boat (some bottom paints slow the boat down a bit).

DP it is...I'm looking more now at a 2005 with a 5.7Gi/DP...best of both worlds Al if you could PM me with any additional Sundowner info you have that'd be great!

Indeed!!!

Is there a hub kit for a prop on a DP drive, just like I had on my alpha one, or is it prop splines on drive splines?

The hubs (if they have any) are built into the props.

Not sure thats entirely true. I'm looking at my one parts catalog now, and you can buy hub kits for the F series props.