Your On-Line Port'o'Call

Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate This Thread
#318275 - 06/04/07 12:14 PM Vazar is priced against O/Bs not I/Os  
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 28,862
seabuddy Offline
Admiral
seabuddy  Offline
Admiral

Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 28,862
It looks like the Merc drive is slated via its retail pricing to go up against the new O/Bs, not I/Os. Pricing is more in line with the 4 stroke O/Bs and several thousands of dollars more than a 135 Hp/Alpha package.

A Word from Our Sponsors
#318297 - 06/04/07 12:45 PM Re: Vazar is priced against O/Bs not I/Os [Re: seabuddy]  
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,885
Skibrain Offline
Admiral
Skibrain  Offline
Admiral

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,885
MN
MercMarine website lists the weight of the Vazer engine and drive at 573lbs. Per your other post on weight of 200 hp 4-strokes, this seems plenty heavy for 100 hp.

Packaging aside, my Evinrude 2-stroke 120hp weighs over 200 lbs LESS than the Vazer. Still this is an intriguing package, just not sure what the ideal application is. It is likely quiet and efficient, but not high-perf.

#318321 - 06/04/07 01:23 PM Re: Vazar is priced against O/Bs not I/Os [Re: Skibrain]  
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 12,395
KCook Offline
Admiral
KCook  Offline
Admiral

Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 12,395
Phoenix
Good luck ....

#318601 - 06/05/07 06:00 AM Re: Vazar is priced against O/Bs not I/Os [Re: KCook]  
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 28,862
seabuddy Offline
Admiral
seabuddy  Offline
Admiral

Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 28,862
The high price to go against the new O/Bs may be choosen to be safe. Its easier to come down in price than to go up. Also, its not yet known how the balance of the business relationship will be structured. When OMC had a slow start to their Sea Drives way back when, it was rumored that they went out to boat builders with memo billing. The boat builder had to pay in their regular terms for the other types of power that OMC delivered, but got very extended billing time to pay on Sea Drive packages. Some were tight on cash and would have to borrow from their banker to pay the engine maker in regular terms, so many took Sea Drives as they could build boats for about 60 cents on the dollar "cash flow" wise. Such a program can make a big difference on paying the bills in the off season for a boat builder. I am not saying that this program is in place for this product. I do not know.

#318670 - 06/05/07 11:04 AM Re: Vazar is priced against O/Bs not I/Os [Re: seabuddy]  
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 12,395
KCook Offline
Admiral
KCook  Offline
Admiral

Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 12,395
Phoenix
That would make a lot of sense however. As it seems to me that this package is going to require the traditional builders to really "rethink" both the design of their boats, AND how to promote them. The more Merc "partners" with them, the more likely all of this is to get done.

Kelly

#318725 - 06/05/07 02:13 PM Re: Vazar is priced against O/Bs not I/Os [Re: KCook]  
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 28,862
seabuddy Offline
Admiral
seabuddy  Offline
Admiral

Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 28,862
Brunswick has enough boat brands to get the new layout features out to the public and get the idea of gaining space via the use of this drive. When an engine company "buys transoms" that is the goal usually.

The cockpit space savings and new flat floor/casting platform area at the same price as the O/B version seems to be the pitch.

If you are looking at 4 stroke O/Bs and this is the same powerhead tech (4 stroke) then the gain inside the cockpit is the sales advantage, perhaps.

Last edited by seabuddy; 06/05/07 02:18 PM.
#318784 - 06/05/07 05:16 PM Re: Vazar is priced against O/Bs not I/Os [Re: seabuddy]  
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 12,395
KCook Offline
Admiral
KCook  Offline
Admiral

Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 12,395
Phoenix
Let's face it, a lot of newbie boaters want their boat to look like their car. Having an OB sticking up in back is not desired at all by them. Regardless of space considerations. But if this is a whole lot more expensive than the old 135hp 3L I/O, then Merc is gonna have to find a way to make the old motor disappear.

Kelly

#318809 - 06/05/07 06:16 PM Re: Vazar is priced against O/Bs not I/Os [Re: KCook]  
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,834
Jack T Offline
Admiral
Jack T  Offline
Admiral

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,834
Southern California
Or the new one.


Have a great day of boating
2012 Monterey 224 FS,
300 HP Volvo Penta with catalytic converters

#318903 - 06/06/07 07:50 AM Re: Vazar is priced against O/Bs not I/Os [Re: Jack T]  
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 28,862
seabuddy Offline
Admiral
seabuddy  Offline
Admiral

Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 28,862
Merc may delete their oldest drive, but may need to keep their full selection of lower Hp engines on the market for sale.

Last edited by seabuddy; 06/06/07 08:31 AM.
#318971 - 06/06/07 12:03 PM Re: Vazar is priced against O/Bs not I/Os [Re: seabuddy]  
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,885
Skibrain Offline
Admiral
Skibrain  Offline
Admiral

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,885
MN
I am just curious to see where these will end up.

In pontoons and bass-boats as pictured on the Merc website? (traditionally outboard applications) Entry-level 15' and 16' i/o bowriders (that would be OK with only 100 hp) ?

#319061 - 06/06/07 05:44 PM Re: Vazar is priced against O/Bs not I/Os [Re: Skibrain]  
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 28,862
seabuddy Offline
Admiral
seabuddy  Offline
Admiral

Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 28,862
The Brunswick brand boat web sites should show us, once the 2008 models get posted in 90 days.

#319067 - 06/06/07 05:59 PM Re: Vazar is priced against O/Bs not I/Os [Re: seabuddy]  
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 9,255
D-Rod Offline
Rock Chalk Jayhawk
D-Rod  Offline
Rock Chalk Jayhawk
Admiral

Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 9,255
Back Stateside
I thought the drive was capable of withstanding more power than 100hp? Right? Wrong? Unknown?


-YOLO
#319117 - 06/06/07 08:23 PM Re: Vazar is priced against O/Bs not I/Os [Re: D-Rod]  
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 28,862
seabuddy Offline
Admiral
seabuddy  Offline
Admiral

Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 28,862
Its been said its good for about 300 Hp, if you treat it gently. No jumping the rig over waves so the prop catches air and not a bunch of full throttke starts.

Last edited by seabuddy; 06/06/07 08:43 PM. Reason: add info
#345513 - 09/17/07 05:24 PM Re: Vazar is priced against O/Bs not I/Os [Re: seabuddy]  
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,974
seadog Offline
Rear Admiral
seadog  Offline
Rear Admiral
Admiral

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,974
Stillwater, OK
I found out that the choice of engines for this was dictated a lot by the fact that it was already adapted to lay flat configurations. Rumor has it that the Verado engines will be modified for future use since they already have a dry sump. Since it uses a modified Alpha drive, it will be good for a lot more HP. It doesn't look like MC will be replacing the Alpha any time soon. Even though the cone clutches are not as clunky, the reliability of the Alphas makes its profit margin pretty nice. The SX is unable to compete on price without effort by VP. I wouldn't be surprised if they change the housing appearance to make the Alpha look more modern like the Vazer.


03 Crestliner 2485 LSi 4.3 MPI
63 Newman 15'
01 Dakota Quad Cab 4.7L
08 Taurus
2013 Mustang

usa1
#345641 - 09/17/07 11:30 PM Re: Vazar is priced against O/Bs not I/Os [Re: seadog]  
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 28,862
seabuddy Offline
Admiral
seabuddy  Offline
Admiral

Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 28,862
Hey, back to where it sort of started. Outboard power head matched to a I/O drive.

#345705 - 09/18/07 09:20 AM Re: Vazar is priced against O/Bs not I/Os [Re: seabuddy]  
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 141
boatnuts Offline
Captain
boatnuts  Offline
Captain

Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 141
North Bay, Ontario Canada
Not quite sure what you are implying about VP not being able to compete, seadog? When I ordered my new horizon, the VP SX with the 3 liter was $300 bucks cheaper than the alpha with the 3 liter. Both great drives, I just like the cone clutch and the servicability of the waterpump much beter with the volvo.

I don't quite understand where Merc would be going with the Vazer if it will cost as much as outboard power. This year I was the "average new sportboat buyer", and I would have bought an outboard powered boat when I bought my Horizon. I was completely against I/O drives and would not have bought a boat with one, had it not been for the $5000 premium for outboard vs I/O power!

Just as a side, does anyone know if Merc has moved the waterpump to an easily servicable location on the Vazer, like Volvo has for years?


2009 Four Winns H180 - Merc 3.0/alpha - 20P Enertia
2007 Four Winns Horizon 180 - VP 3.0 SX *sold*
#345760 - 09/18/07 11:57 AM Re: Vazar is priced against O/Bs not I/Os [Re: boatnuts]  
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,974
seadog Offline
Rear Admiral
seadog  Offline
Rear Admiral
Admiral

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,974
Stillwater, OK
I did not say that Volvo could not compete with the SX, only that they had to make more of an effort to compete on price point. In most cases that I have seen, the SX has been price between the Alpha and the Bravo I. It is closer to the Bravo in customer targeting, but without a low end option, they have to price it to be a challenge to the Alpha. Each drive has its pros and cons. The newer Alphas are less inclined to clunk into gear. No matter which version, if you do not shift into gear firmly, you will eventually grind off the dogs. On the cone clutches, the same action will not make as much noise, but you still will eventually wear the clutch down. Until they come up with a automatic model, this is a reality of the drives. What is likely we might see, is a hydraulic-electric shifter system like is used in high end sports cars.


03 Crestliner 2485 LSi 4.3 MPI
63 Newman 15'
01 Dakota Quad Cab 4.7L
08 Taurus
2013 Mustang

usa1
#345799 - 09/18/07 01:38 PM Re: Vazar is priced against O/Bs not I/Os [Re: seadog]  
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,834
Jack T Offline
Admiral
Jack T  Offline
Admiral

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,834
Southern California
"Until they come up with a automatic model, this is a reality of the drives. What is likely we might see, is a hydraulic-electric shifter system like is used in high end sports cars."

OMC tried something like this between 1969 and 1977 on their very old stringer mount drives with an electric shift mechanism. Quite a catastrophe, actually.

Here's someone describing a problem one year ago in a 30-year-old unit. In one of the responses is a description of how it works.
http://www.everythingboats.com/asksurveyor/forum/bbs.pl?read=8031

Here's a good history of OMC outdrive production
http://www.glmmarine.com/30yearsomc.html


Have a great day of boating
2012 Monterey 224 FS,
300 HP Volvo Penta with catalytic converters

#345863 - 09/18/07 05:19 PM Re: Vazar is priced against O/Bs not I/Os [Re: Jack T]  
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,974
seadog Offline
Rear Admiral
seadog  Offline
Rear Admiral
Admiral

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,974
Stillwater, OK
What they could not get to work 40 years ago, does not mean it will not be perfected in the future. Early mopars had shifters that you only used the clutch to start off with and then you did not use it to shift. What is in some of the european sports car is nothing like that. Reliable electronics can do a lot.


03 Crestliner 2485 LSi 4.3 MPI
63 Newman 15'
01 Dakota Quad Cab 4.7L
08 Taurus
2013 Mustang

usa1

Moderated by  Admin 

Sponsors
New Topics
Bravo 2 U-Joints
by Boatbottom. 09/10/18 09:25 AM
Upper MidWest Boating Destinations
by Dock Holiday. 09/01/18 01:02 PM
Golden Triangle cruise plus 1000 Islands
by Dave R. 08/29/18 03:10 PM
shift cable adjustment
by skidmark. 08/29/18 12:04 PM
Stupid Subaru Design
by Justification. 08/27/18 12:41 PM
Malibu buys another brand
by Capn Morgan. 08/22/18 08:21 AM
Late tax filing BS
by Frantically Relaxing. 08/14/18 01:02 PM
How to make 1” holes through the top, side of boat
by cny boater. 07/07/18 03:28 PM
Time for a new grill?
by Silverbullet. 06/09/18 08:29 PM
Who's Online Now
0 registered members (), 42 guests, and 4 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
FrankC, skidmark, calmwaters, ron3033, frabru
5459 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums23
Topics37,189
Posts563,038
Members5,459
Most Online252
Aug 5th, 2017
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0