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#374576 - 01/28/08 03:35 PM Re: The case of the plane and conveyor belt [Re: casualboater]  
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FatDog Offline
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thats it ... blowing some stuff up under the guise of science, but its fun to watch,

afterall, the last truly scientific show came to an end once they got Gilligan, the professor, and those two hot babes off the island


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#374579 - 01/28/08 03:38 PM Re: The case of the plane and conveyor belt [Re: casualboater]  
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WaterMutt Offline
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 Originally Posted By: casualboater
 Originally Posted By: WaterMutt
My problem with Mythbusters is they do things thier way, and it might not be the right way that it should be done. AFter doing it one way and failing after several attempts, the myth is busted. Also, thier scientific methods aren't overly scientific typically. I don't know, may be I am all wased up on the idea, but I don't follow thier methods.



So? It's just a lot of fun to watch! Anytime the blow something up or utterly destroy it, I'm a happy man. I don't think this show is really about the science.


Never said I wasn't jealous of getting to rubble-ise a bunch of perfectly good stuff. I just don't place much emphasis on thier conclusions is all.


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#374587 - 01/28/08 03:49 PM Re: The case of the plane and conveyor belt [Re: WaterMutt]  
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 Quote:
Until that happens, its like discussing politics. You can't prove your point.



Lanierboater mentioned politics!! Lock the thread!

#374588 - 01/28/08 03:51 PM Re: The case of the plane and conveyor belt [Re: mambajack]  
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AnchorYanker Offline
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I was going to chime in but I don't want to repeat anything and I don't have time to read 17 pages. For what it's worth, Plane takes off, Monkey stinks, and Monty Hall's one rich old dude.


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#374594 - 01/28/08 04:16 PM Re: The case of the plane and conveyor belt [Re: AnchorYanker]  
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Heyboer Offline
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I see the plane lifting off then crashing. I suspect they will have a BIG fan of some type.

#374598 - 01/28/08 04:48 PM Re: The case of the plane and conveyor belt [Re: Heyboer]  
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D-Rod Offline
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FR has it, IMHO. Unless the internal friction of the wheel bearings cannot handle the additional speeds.

The wheels will be traveling at 2x rate of the orginal take off speed.

Example, plane normally takes flight at 300mph.

On the belt, the wheels will be traveling at 600mph. I think. It might be 1200mph. Let me think about that a little more.

Obviously, that isn't going to happen with stock wheels, so therefore the plane is not taking off until that part is corrected.

Fix that and the plane will take off.

D-Rod.

PS: Here's the routing number 0000000000 and account number 1234567 for you to deposit your contributions too.


-YOLO
#374607 - 01/28/08 05:11 PM Re: The case of the plane and conveyor belt [Re: Heyboer]  
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WaterMutt Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Heyboer
I see the plane lifting off then crashing. I suspect they will have a BIG fan of some type.


Maybe they'll do two conveyers and two planes aimed at each other. That'd be cool...


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#374618 - 01/28/08 05:39 PM Re: The case of the plane and conveyor belt [Re: WaterMutt]  
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 Originally Posted By: WaterMutt


Maybe they'll do two conveyers and two planes aimed at each other. That'd be cool...


Oh yeah, now you've got me really hoping!!


I'm just happy to be here!



#374660 - 01/28/08 07:45 PM Re: The case of the plane and conveyor belt [Re: BillyB]  
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trooplewis Offline
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I trust MythBusters WAY more than any personality I have seen so far in the presedential debates. I hope the plane stays on the ground...

#374768 - 01/29/08 11:30 AM Re: The case of the plane and conveyor belt [Re: trooplewis]  
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Skibrain Offline
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Without reading all of this, it's easy. An airplane needs air speed to fly. Conveyor belt creates air speed only off the friction of the "belt". Not significant.

Airplane would not fly.

An airplane with zero ground speed and a head wind ( or wind tunnel) equal to or greater than it's take off speed can "fly" under power. It could even have negative ground speed. flying backwards in relation to the ground.

#374774 - 01/29/08 11:59 AM Re: The case of the plane and conveyor belt [Re: Skibrain]  
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WaterMutt Offline
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nevermind....

Last edited by WaterMutt; 01/29/08 12:00 PM.

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#374781 - 01/29/08 12:04 PM Re: The case of the plane and conveyor belt [Re: Skibrain]  
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D-Rod Offline
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Skibrian, why do you think the plane will have zero ground speed? The conveyor belt only has the ability to move "wheels", not the plane. If the engines are producing thrust, the plane can move forward on the conveyor belt at any speed. There simply has to be enough thrust to overcome the wheel friction, right?

Think of it like this, if you tied a huge chain the the airplane and ran the conveyor belt, the plane's wheels would move but the plane would not move in the direction of the belt. The engine's thrust can work the same as the chain. When powered up, the engine's thrust can be greater than what is needed to hold the plane stationary, therefore the plane accelerates.

If the belt's speed increases as the plane moves forward, that just means the plane's wheel's are moving twice as fast. Again, assuming the gear assembly can handle double the speeds, and the friction is small enough that the engines can overpower, the plane should lift off in approximently the same distance it would normally take.

The plane will need the 2 miles or whatever is needed to lift off. There is no way to keep the plane stationary and have it take off. But, that is not what this question asks, right?

D


-YOLO
#374848 - 01/29/08 02:26 PM Re: The case of the plane and conveyor belt [Re: D-Rod]  
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Got it. I was not paying attention.

#374850 - 01/29/08 02:27 PM Re: The case of the plane and conveyor belt [Re: D-Rod]  
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Woody Offline
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I just saw the commercial for that show on Wednesday and thought of this thread.

The plane will fly in the stated theoretical problem.

I can imagine that that the control loop for the conveyor could be a problem for them on TV though. By definition, it will be a feed-back loop and will present issues with regard to sensor selection, processing cycle time, and prime mover acceleration ramp.

I also wonder how they will handle the dimensional analysis and similitude challenges for the experiment. I am not sure that the assumption of "divide everything by the same number" is a valid modeling approach given the subject matter.

#374974 - 01/30/08 07:51 AM Re: The case of the plane and conveyor belt [Re: Scott L]  
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I have not read all the replies regarding this topic. I sent the initial question to my uncle who is a retired commerical airline captain, who flew 737 for 30 years with not putting even a dent in his planes. I also sent this to my brother who is not a retired but is a captain for the same airline as my uncle.

This is what my uncle said:
"I need more info before answering. What is the planes speed? Lift must occur which is a result of speed based upon weight, temp, and altitude. If the conveyer is moving the wing fast enough, then lift will occur and flight will follow.


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#375225 - 01/30/08 09:31 PM Re: The case of the plane and conveyor belt [Re: trooplewis]  
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Anyone watching Mythbusters?


-------------------------------
"Politicians never accuse you of 'greed' for wanting other people's money --- only for wanting to keep your own money."
#375226 - 01/30/08 09:33 PM Re: The case of the plane and conveyor belt [Re: LanierBoater]  
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Yep. Pretty obvious what was going to happen. And he explained it very well with the RC car on the treadmill.


I'm just happy to be here!



#375233 - 01/30/08 10:00 PM Re: The case of the plane and conveyor belt [Re: BillyB]  
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D-Rod Offline
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Some had it figured out. I definitely wasn't the first to mention the correct prediction.

Interesting nonetheless.


-YOLO
#375263 - 01/31/08 12:50 AM Re: The case of the plane and conveyor belt [Re: D-Rod]  
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Oh sure. My dish network is kaput, can't watch-- and you guys don't bother saying WHAT the results were?
;\)

#375292 - 01/31/08 07:12 AM Re: The case of the plane and conveyor belt [Re: Frantically Relaxing]  
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We'll let Deepv tell you. QED.


-------------------------------
"Politicians never accuse you of 'greed' for wanting other people's money --- only for wanting to keep your own money."
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