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#339229 - 08/24/07 08:43 PM Re: The case of the plane and conveyor belt [Re: markas]  
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Budinski Offline
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Houston
Just when you thought this horse was dead, I saw it twitch. I just want to complete the story.

A number of you are right, or at least close to being right. The relative wind (air flow) over an airfoil (wing) is what produces the low pressure above the wing that we call LIFT. And the most common way to get that air to flow over the wing is to introduce forward motion of the wing. That’s why airplanes roll and helicopters’ blades turn. The faster the airfoil moves through the air—or the air moves past the airfoil—the more lift is produced. When enough lift is produced to overcome the affect of gravity, the aircraft leaves the ground.

In the 1970’s NASA wanted to increase helicopters' speed while retaining their vertical take-off capabilities. They tried many things, and one of the innovative ways they thought of was truly amazing. They wanted to make a 4-bladed rotor extra stiff so that it could be slow down during flight to become a wing. To achieve fast airflow over an airfoil was slowing to a stop, they delivered compressed air out of the leading edge over the top of the wing and had the trailing edge of the wing with a slot in it which sucked air in. That way they thought that they could create lift from the wing/rotor at all times—even if the rotor wasn’t spinning.

You can see the X-wing experimental aircraft at this site:
http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/gallery/Photo/X-Wing/Medium/EC86-33555-2.jpg

It was a neat idea; however, the Russians beat NASA to it when they retrofitted one of their HIND helicopters with this advanced technology. So NASA gave up on this innovative idea.

You can see it flying at this site: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQDjJRYmeWg

So, hopefully this horse is dead…or is it?


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#339230 - 08/24/07 08:46 PM Re: The case of the plane and conveyor belt [Re: Budinski]  
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markas Offline
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Wait...the type of plane was not specified - 'state your assumptions' - what about assuming the plane is a Harrier or some other VTOL?


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#374472 - 01/28/08 11:25 AM Re: The case of the plane and conveyor belt [Re: markas]  
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Just Bob Offline
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OK, not trying to ressurect an old debate, but I just noticed that Mythbusters will be testing this out on Wednesday night January 30th at 9PM on the Discovery channel.

We will FINALLY know the answer to this question!


"Annabo": 2005 Larson Senza 206 w/5.0L Bravo III
#374500 - 01/28/08 01:08 PM Re: The case of the plane and conveyor belt [Re: Just Bob]  
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BillyB Offline
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Alright!!!! Thanks for the heads up!


I'm just happy to be here!



#374503 - 01/28/08 01:22 PM Re: The case of the plane and conveyor belt [Re: BillyB]  
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deepv Offline
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Nooooooooo......!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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#374511 - 01/28/08 01:44 PM Re: The case of the plane and conveyor belt [Re: deepv]  
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WaterMutt Offline
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Whether they agree with my answer or not, I put NO faith in the Mythbusters and thier antics.


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#374514 - 01/28/08 01:54 PM Re: The case of the plane and conveyor belt [Re: WaterMutt]  
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Admin Offline
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I tried sitting through that show once. Lasted about 10 mins.

I do not believe it worthy of being taken seriously or as "fact".


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#374515 - 01/28/08 01:56 PM Re: The case of the plane and conveyor belt [Re: WaterMutt]  
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Just Bob Offline
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 Originally Posted By: WaterMutt
Whether they agree with my answer or not, I put NO faith in the Mythbusters and thier antics.

Really? I find that they seem to really try to test the myth as accurately as possible, and then if/when they disprove it, they have fun going overboard to show exactly what it would take to achieve the myth.

Like the other day, they tried to see if firing a 9mm pistol into a propane tank would blow it up, and it didn't, so they ended up firing incendiary rounds from a 50 round per second machine gun. It blew up after that...


"Annabo": 2005 Larson Senza 206 w/5.0L Bravo III
#374518 - 01/28/08 02:12 PM Re: The case of the plane and conveyor belt [Re: Just Bob]  
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Frantically Relaxing Offline
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I like mythbusters, and believe they try their best to prove/disprove things. However, I myself am proof one of their busted myths is wrong---the one where they tried to prove whether or not a person could crash thru glass and walk away relatively unhurt (like in the movies)---they built a jelly dummy, and 'proved' that going thru 1/4" thick glass would hack a person up big time, and therefore it was BS that Eddie Murphy could just walk away from being thrown thru that window in 'Beverly Hills Cop'...Well, when I was 6 years old I crashed thru the 1/4" thick glass door at the local bowling alley (running, and missed the door handle!) and ended up face first in a pile of shattered glass---all that happened was a 1/2" gouge across my nose and a cut on my thumb. And not another scratch...

That said -- ;\)

The plane will fly. \:\)


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#374522 - 01/28/08 02:24 PM Re: The case of the plane and conveyor belt [Re: Frantically Relaxing]  
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FatDog Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Frantically Relaxing
......... Well, when I was 6 years old I crashed thru the 1/4" thick glass door at the local bowling alley (running, and missed the door handle!) ....

i watched a buddy at college do the same thing, unknowingly run through the glass door and hit the ground, all without a scratch,
it should have been a commercial for budweiser, as that played an active role, but maybe thats not the sort of image they are going for,

mythbusters was better before they got all those junior assistants on the show,
but those guys sure do have access to a bunch of cool equipment and ideas, it can be pretty enjoyable


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#374524 - 01/28/08 02:25 PM Re: The case of the plane and conveyor belt [Re: Frantically Relaxing]  
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BToran Offline
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yeah, yeah, yeah. but what if monty hall was flying the plane while everyone debated whether a contestant was better off with door number one or door number two and at the same time, the flight attendant was flipping coins while everyone debated whether the chances were increased or decreased that it would land on heads or tails? seems to me, in that situation, time would slow to the point of it being inconsequential, and we'd all realize the exact same thing at the exact same space/time moment.......it's winter, we're bored, and it just doesn't matter.

oh, and the monkey on the rope....he'll still stink.


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Former Owner of a 1996 Carver 320 Voyager
-----------------------------------------
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#374527 - 01/28/08 02:31 PM Re: The case of the plane and conveyor belt [Re: BToran]  
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Admin Offline
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Give that man a cigar! We have a winner!.


Mike

BoatingABC.com
My imaginary friend thinks you have serious problems.
#374543 - 01/28/08 03:09 PM Re: The case of the plane and conveyor belt [Re: Admin]  
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WaterMutt Offline
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My problem with Mythbusters is they do things thier way, and it might not be the right way that it should be done. AFter doing it one way and failing after several attempts, the myth is busted. Also, thier scientific methods aren't overly scientific typically. I don't know, may be I am all wased up on the idea, but I don't follow thier methods.


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#374545 - 01/28/08 03:11 PM Re: The case of the plane and conveyor belt [Re: Admin]  
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LanierBoater Offline
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I do not see how Mythbusters can create a scenerio that can duplicate the original set of circumstances.
Until that happens, its like discussing politics. You can't prove your point.


-------------------------------
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#374549 - 01/28/08 03:17 PM Re: The case of the plane and conveyor belt [Re: LanierBoater]  
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Just Bob Offline
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"A plane is standing on a runway that can move (some sort of band conveyer). The plane moves in one direction, while the conveyer moves in the opposite direction. This conveyer has a control system that tracks the plane speed and tunes the speed of the conveyer to be exactly the same (but in the opposite direction). Can the plane take off?"

Tell me they won't build a conveyer belt, stick a plane on it, and try to make the plane take off. I bet they'll even do it on the same full size scale.


"Annabo": 2005 Larson Senza 206 w/5.0L Bravo III
#374558 - 01/28/08 03:35 PM Re: The case of the plane and conveyor belt [Re: Just Bob]  
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WaterMutt Offline
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In any case, I am interested in how they interpret the question.


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Bryant 214 Limited (gone, but not forgotten)

"That's my boat..."
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#374560 - 01/28/08 03:44 PM Re: The case of the plane and conveyor belt [Re: Just Bob]  
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LanierBoater Offline
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 Quote:
Tell me they won't build a conveyer belt, stick a plane on it, and try to make the plane take off. I bet they'll even do it on the same full size scale.


In the words of John McEnroe: "You can NOT be serious".


-------------------------------
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#374566 - 01/28/08 04:03 PM Re: The case of the plane and conveyor belt [Re: Just Bob]  
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BillyB Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Just Bob

Tell me they won't build a conveyer belt, stick a plane on it, and try to make the plane take off. I bet they'll even do it on the same full size scale.


Uummm, how else would they test the myth if they don't do it that way??


I'm just happy to be here!



#374572 - 01/28/08 04:14 PM Re: The case of the plane and conveyor belt [Re: BillyB]  
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Frantically Relaxing Offline
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 Originally Posted By: BillyB
 Originally Posted By: Just Bob

Tell me they won't build a conveyer belt, stick a plane on it, and try to make the plane take off. I bet they'll even do it on the same full size scale.


Uummm, how else would they test the myth if they don't do it that way??

1/4 scale model airplanes. Pretty big in their own right, should be enough to test the theory.

and--the only way a conveyor turning the wheels backwards would stop a plane from going forwards is if turning the wheels caused the plane to go backwards in the first place, which they won't do. There. No money need be wasted on a TV show.

;\)


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#374574 - 01/28/08 04:25 PM Re: The case of the plane and conveyor belt [Re: WaterMutt]  
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casualboater Offline
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 Originally Posted By: WaterMutt
My problem with Mythbusters is they do things thier way, and it might not be the right way that it should be done. AFter doing it one way and failing after several attempts, the myth is busted. Also, thier scientific methods aren't overly scientific typically. I don't know, may be I am all wased up on the idea, but I don't follow thier methods.



So? It's just a lot of fun to watch! Anytime the blow something up or utterly destroy it, I'm a happy man. I don't think this show is really about the science.


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