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#123614 - 08/02/06 09:22 PM 5.0 HO OMC stopped.  
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Charles Weber Offline
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Charles Weber  Offline
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Ankeny, Iowa
Our 1993 Chris Craft with an OMC 5 liter HO Ford engine stopped on us this week-end. First time ever. It has run over 10 hours the past month, and about 30 for this season. It restarted, ran for a while and stopped again. It restarted and we idled the rest of the way to the dock.
I'm looking for suggestions and any possible quirks anyone might be aware of with the 5 liter Ford.
It is carbureted and has a mechanical fuel pump.

The scenario:
Hot day, 90+
Cruise at 20 for 5 minutes, idle in a no-wake area for 5 to 15 minutes, then cruise for a time.
Been at it for an hour.

Cruising at 20-22, engine bogs, picks up, bogs, picks up, and then stops completely. Normal operating temp and oil pressure. Just like it was out of gas, but the gas gauge indicates just over 1/4 tank.
I opened the engine compartment and all appears normal. No excessive heat. No loose hoses or wires. I removed the cannister fuel filter and it was full of fuel. Replaced it, checked the fuel tank vent was not plugged. Tried to start the engine and it fired right up. Probably no longer than 3 or 4 minutes after it had died.

Got up on step, ran fine at 20, accelerated to 35 and it died again.

Fuel filter was still full. It restarted when I tried after about 3 minutes. This time I just idled back to our dock which probably took no more than 5 minutes.

Filled the gas tank which took about 10 gallons. I also put in two 12 oz. cans of Sea Foam gas treatment. I think the tank holds about 16 gallons so it wasn't empty. I ran it at the dock at various speeds for 10 minutes with no problem.

My thoughts.

Out of gas?
It had gas in the tank and gas in the fuel filter.

Vapor lock?
It only set for a very few minutes and didn't have much chance to cool down which a vapor lock usually needs to clear.

Plugge fuel filter?
New one to go in this week-end, but what I could see of the old one looked like new. It was new last fall prior to storage.

Problem with the tank pickup?
Gas in the fuel filter.

Bad fuel pump?
Gas in the fuel filter, plus it started and ran for a while. Wouldn't a fuel pump wither pump or not pump, rather than come and go? It is the original fuel pump. I will try to test it by pumping into a bottle this week-end.

Water in the gas?
Seems like it would have to be a pretty high percentage of water to stall things at 2000 RPM.
I have never used any fuel with ethanol in the boats.

It had all the symptoms of fuel starvation, but I didn't find a cause.
The other thing that makes me nervous is the fact that about 90% of the problems I have ever had with boats or vehicles and blamed on a fuel system turned out to be electrical.
Changing the fuel filter is no problem, but I hate to just start changing parts with no real knowledge if they are needed.


Charles
1993 Chris Craft 197 Concept, 5.0 OMC Cobra Drive
1986 Weere's 20' Sportsman (Pontoon), 40hp Evinrude
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#123615 - 08/02/06 09:54 PM Re: 5.0 HO OMC stopped.  
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JDandSvn Offline
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New Orleans
_________________________________________________
"Cruising at 20-22, engine bogs, picks up, bogs, picks up, and then stops completely. Normal operating temp and oil pressure. Just like it was out of gas, but the gas gauge indicates just over 1/4 tank."
________________________________________________

Three possible causes (other than fuel filter)come to mind.

1. Fuel lines are soft and collapsing under higher fuel flow rates. Were they changed recently?
2. Anti-siphon valve malfunctioning. (I've had two create problems on an outboard I had, restricting fuel flow.)
3. Some tanks have a screen on the end of the fuel pickup tube. This could possibly be restricted.

________________________________________
"Bad fuel pump?
Gas in the fuel filter, plus it started and ran for a while. Wouldn't a fuel pump either pump or not pump, rather than come and go? It is the original fuel pump"
__________________________________________
I can't speak for the marinized versions of the 5.0l, but the mechanical pumps I had on automotive engines (3) also dumped fuel in the oil when the diaphragm's started to fail.

____________________________
Fuel filter was still full.
____________________________

Since the engine did run, I would expect the filter to be full unless there was air leaking into the fuel lines before the filter (or fuel pump).


One levee away from a waterfront home.

2004 Ford F-250 SD CC
1998 Ford 150 Lariat
2001 Chaparral Signature 260
#123616 - 08/02/06 10:24 PM Re: 5.0 HO OMC stopped.  
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williemon Offline
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Columbus Georgia
Water or trash in fuel or carb? Coil going bad?

#123617 - 08/02/06 10:34 PM Re: 5.0 HO OMC stopped.  
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Charles Weber Offline
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Charles Weber  Offline
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Ankeny, Iowa
 Quote:
Originally posted by JDandSvn:

Three possible causes (other than fuel filter)come to mind.

1. Fuel lines are soft and collapsing under higher fuel flow rates. Were they changed recently?
No, they are original. I can only access about 12" of the rubber(?probably not rubber), line and it feels quite rigid. If it is collapsing, the inner part has to be separating from the outside. This line is before the fuel filter that is full. All the lines after the fuel filter are steel.

 Quote:
2. Anti-siphon valve malfunctioning. (I've had two create problems on an outboard I had, restricting fuel flow.)
I have no idea what and where this might be. Again, wouldn't it be before the fuel filter that is full?

 Quote:
3. Some tanks have a screen on the end of the fuel pickup tube. This could possibly be restricted.
I sure hope not. There doesn't seem to be any way to access the fuel pickup without cutting some holes in the boat. Here again, wouldn't a restriction there keep the fuel from getting to the fuel filter?

________________________________________
"Bad fuel pump?
Gas in the fuel filter, plus it started and ran for a while. Wouldn't a fuel pump either pump or not pump, rather than come and go? It is the original fuel pump"
__________________________________________
 Quote:
I can't speak for the marinized versions of the 5.0l, but the mechanical pumps I had on automotive engines (3) also dumped fuel in the oil when the diaphragm's started to fail.
That hasn't happened, but like you say, it may not with the marine version.


____________________________
Fuel filter was still full.
____________________________
 Quote:
Since the engine did run, I would expect the filter to be full unless there was air leaking into the fuel lines before the filter (or fuel pump).
The flow is from the tank via a rubber line that I can only see about a foot of. It then adapts to a steel line that goes to the fuel filter. From the fuel filter it goes to the fuel pump, (steel line), and from the fuel pump to the carburetor, (another steel line).
Wouldn't an air leak in any of the lines before the filter leave the filter empty?

I'm really not trying to be argumentive. \:\)
I just don't understand what can be happening. Don't give up on me yet.


Charles
1993 Chris Craft 197 Concept, 5.0 OMC Cobra Drive
1986 Weere's 20' Sportsman (Pontoon), 40hp Evinrude
#123618 - 08/02/06 10:40 PM Re: 5.0 HO OMC stopped.  
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Charles Weber Offline
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Charles Weber  Offline
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Ankeny, Iowa
 Quote:
Originally posted by williemon:
Water or trash in fuel or carb? Coil going bad?
It seems like it would take a lot of water to kill the engine at 2000 to 3500 RPM, but I am running the Sea Foam to see if that will help. I also plan to dump the fuel filter into a clear container to see if any water settles out.

A bad coil or solid state module was something I considered, but wouldn't they usually have to cool longer than just 2 or 3 minutes before functioning again?


Charles
1993 Chris Craft 197 Concept, 5.0 OMC Cobra Drive
1986 Weere's 20' Sportsman (Pontoon), 40hp Evinrude
#123619 - 08/02/06 10:43 PM Re: 5.0 HO OMC stopped.  
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Charles Weber Offline
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Charles Weber  Offline
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Ankeny, Iowa
One thing I didn't want to bury in the previous replies.
If I watch the tach when the engine dies, wouldn't an electrical problem cause the tach to drop immediately while a fuel delivery problem should cause it to come down slowly?


Charles
1993 Chris Craft 197 Concept, 5.0 OMC Cobra Drive
1986 Weere's 20' Sportsman (Pontoon), 40hp Evinrude
#123620 - 08/02/06 10:54 PM Re: 5.0 HO OMC stopped.  
Joined: Jul 2006
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prober Offline
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Eastern Washington
Check the fuel tank vent line. Spiders like to build nests in there. Also could have water or fuel trapped in a low spot in the vent line, which would act like your finger on the end of a straw. Lastly, fuel pumps can act exactly like what you describe, or a float that only drops part way,but is less likely. fuel pump is my guess.

#123621 - 08/03/06 10:53 AM Re: 5.0 HO OMC stopped.  
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JDandSvn Offline
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New Orleans
Charles:

_______________________________________________
Cruising at 20-22, engine bogs, picks up, bogs, picks up, and then stops completely. Normal operating temp and oil pressure. Just like it was out of gas,
________________________________________________
This definitely sounds like a fuel delivery issue with the engine under load.

______________________________________________
Wouldn't an air leak in any of the lines before the filter leave the filter empty?
_______________________________________________

It may not leave it empty, but it the filter would have some air in it. I stated this to emphasize that I would expect the filter to be full, EVEN if the fuel lines were collapsing or the fuel pump was weak (or failing) with the exception of an air leak.

Since your problem is not at idle or higher RPM's with a load, the possibilites I listed are more likely at higher fuel flow rates, i.e. - under load at higher than idle RPM's.

_________________________________________________
I can only access about 12" of the rubber(?probably not rubber), line and it feels quite rigid. If it is collapsing, the inner part has to be separating from the outside.
_________________________________________________
This inner part separating from the outer part is also a possibility. This is in part why I asked about the age of the lines.

____________________
Anti-Siphon Valve
____________________
The Coast Guard requires an anti-siphon valve installed on all boats with built-in fuel tanks since the late '70's +/-. This valve is designed to prevent fuel from siphoning from the tank to the bilge in the event of a fuel line failure.

It is normally located at the top of the fuel pickup line in the tank. It typically screws into the pick-up and has a hose barb on the other end where the fuel line connects.

The problem I had with these valves were that they restricted fuel flow at higher flow rates, not at idle. Complicating the diagnosis was the fact that the restrictions would not occur with regularity at a given fuel flow or time.

Again, I was dealing with fuel flow rates of 10-15 gal/hr at cruise to WOT. Once I changed out the valve, the problem went away. (Approx. $12-15 for the valve)

___________________________________
. . . screen on the end of the fuel pickup tube

Here again, wouldn't a restriction there keep the fuel from getting to the fuel filter?
_______________________________________

Again, at idle/no load conditions, adequate fuel may be able to pass through the screen.

One additional question. Is there perhaps another fuel filter behind the connection where the fuel line goes into the carb?

As stated by Prober, the fuel pump may also be a possible cause. This should be able to be checked by connecting a vacuum gauge to the suction side of the pump and getting a reading. I don't know what the value should be (it may be posted in your service manual).

One other diagnostic measure that may isolate where the problem is would to be to disconnect the built-in tank and hook up a secondary tank to the fuel line (Do you have a connection in the 12" of line that you have access to). If the boat runs fine on the secondary tank, you could narrow the area of the system causing the problem. (If the boat runs fine on the secondary tank, I would then connect the main tank and if the problem repeats this would isolate the problem to the tank/anti-siphon valve/rubber fuel line.)


One levee away from a waterfront home.

2004 Ford F-250 SD CC
1998 Ford 150 Lariat
2001 Chaparral Signature 260
#123622 - 08/03/06 11:10 AM Re: 5.0 HO OMC stopped.  
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Charles Weber Offline
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Charles Weber  Offline
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Ankeny, Iowa
Thanks to all who have responded. I have gained some knowledge whether I can fix my problem or not. \:\)
The mechanic that takes care of my vehicles mentioned all the things we have discussed and also said that it was not that uncommon for a fuel pump to give the exact symptoms that I am having.
Since the fuel pump change is pretty much a no-brainer, it fits right into my capabilities. This week-end, I plan to remove the fuel pump and order a new one. The marine dealer I will purchase it from is pretty sure he has the right part number to get the correct pump, but since he has to order it, I figured bringing the old pump in would be of some help.
Being about 20 miles from the nearest auto supply store when I'm at the lake causes some problems with getting anything I need in the way of hoses, etc. I have basic hand tools, but not much in the way of anything beyond that.
Changing the fuel pump won't be that big of a deal and with most engines built in the last 20 years, parts changing is about all I have any business doing anyway. \:D


Charles
1993 Chris Craft 197 Concept, 5.0 OMC Cobra Drive
1986 Weere's 20' Sportsman (Pontoon), 40hp Evinrude
#123623 - 08/03/06 11:41 AM Re: 5.0 HO OMC stopped.  
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Charles Weber Offline
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Charles Weber  Offline
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Ankeny, Iowa
JDandSvn:
My first thought when the engine faltered and picked up again was fuel delivery and I still lean that way.

If the problem is in the anti-siphon valve, the rubber fuel line or the fuel pick up, I have no access to those without major disassembly of my boat. I think I'm going to hope the problem is in an area I can get to.

There is a screen in the inlet to the carb and it is clean.

I do have a vacuum gauge and I may be able to rig up some sort of a connection to the fuel pump. I'll have to check the service manual for any specs on delivery pressure.

I think I can disconnect the rubber line/steel line where they join together, but I'm not sure how difficult it is going to be to find any adaptors to fabricate a secondary tank hook-up within 75 miles of where the boat is.

If the fuel pump change doesn't correct the problem, I may have to go that route. Chances are that if the problem is at the tank or the rubber fuel line, my runabout season will be over.
Hopefully, the fuel pump will take care of it.


Charles
1993 Chris Craft 197 Concept, 5.0 OMC Cobra Drive
1986 Weere's 20' Sportsman (Pontoon), 40hp Evinrude
#123624 - 08/03/06 09:19 PM Re: 5.0 HO OMC stopped.  
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prober Offline
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Eastern Washington
Find the fuel vent thru hull, open the gas cap and see if you can blow through the vent. If you can't, try snaking it with a piece of electrical wire to get rid of any spider webs etc. if the fuel pump doesn't do the trick plumb a hose to a outboard style tank and see if that works, as was said earlier. Let us know how you make out.

#123625 - 08/03/06 10:30 PM Re: 5.0 HO OMC stopped.  
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CJS Offline
Admiral
CJS  Offline
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Lake Geneva, WI
Long shot:

When I was 15, my dad had a garden tractor that had some engine troubles. The engine would run fine for a little while, then splutter, then conk out and die, not to run again until sufficient time had passed. As it turned out, I discovered the engine had a lube problem.... i.e., when my little bro changed the oil, he only added 0.25qts instead of 1.25qts. :rolleyes:

Anyway, before the engine threw a rod, it behaved as you have described. How's your oil?


2017 Yamaha VX Cruiser HO
2017 Toyota 4Runner Limited 4X4
2016 Toyota Sequoia Limited 4X4
#123626 - 08/03/06 10:37 PM Re: 5.0 HO OMC stopped.  
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Charles Weber Offline
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Charles Weber  Offline
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Ankeny, Iowa
Prober:
I won't be changing the fuel pump until the week-end of August 12th & 13th, but I will post my results shortly after.

CJS:
The oil is full and the oil pressure and temperature are in their normal operating range when the engine is running.

FWIW, I raise the cover over the engine and check the oil everytime I take the boat out. Lets out any gas fumes, (I still do run the blower), lets me see any water or fuel leaks, and I have no problem remembering when I last checked the oil.


Charles
1993 Chris Craft 197 Concept, 5.0 OMC Cobra Drive
1986 Weere's 20' Sportsman (Pontoon), 40hp Evinrude
#123627 - 08/03/06 10:49 PM Re: 5.0 HO OMC stopped.  
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CJS Offline
Admiral
CJS  Offline
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Lake Geneva, WI
Good to know. As I said, it was a long shot, but the more you rule out in the beginning increases the chances of hitting the right solution in the fewest number of tries later on. I hope the issue is a fuel delivery problem, and that the new pump fixes the troubles for you. I'm interested to know how it turns out.


2017 Yamaha VX Cruiser HO
2017 Toyota 4Runner Limited 4X4
2016 Toyota Sequoia Limited 4X4
#123628 - 08/04/06 01:01 AM Re: 5.0 HO OMC stopped.  
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prober Offline
Admiral
prober  Offline
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Eastern Washington
Yeah, sounds like that should fix it. That's pretty good service life for an original pump, so you gotta feel pretty good swapping it anyway, even if it wasn't the problem. A friend of mine put a new locking gas cap on his van once and it was not the a vented cap like the original one was. Well, he kept running out of gas, and finally he ran out 10 miles after filling his tank. turned out that his gas tank was sucked flat and would only hold about 5 gallons. Afew days later his fuel pump quit. The relate in this long winded story was that some t lines on boats are prone to plugging either from water or fuel getting trapped in a low spot in the vent tube or from some critter getting in there to make a home for the winter, and it can do the same things you are describing.

#123629 - 08/06/06 09:35 AM Re: 5.0 HO OMC stopped.  
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Frantically Relaxing Offline
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I give 4 to 1 odds it's the fuel pump. Too many dead giveaways. First is that it will idle, but not run. The clincher for me was when you filled the tank it "ran with no problems".

IMO your pump's diaphragm has stretched. It's still capable of pumping, but only slightly. And as it gets warmer, it just gets worse. This is why a cool-down period will help for a moment. Also, with a full tank of gas the pump is basically primed, and the weak diaphragm can push fuel to the carb sufficiently. With 1/4 tank of gas, the pump must work harder to PULL the fuel also.

Your marinized fuel pump should have a clear tube running from it to the carb. This tube should NOT have fuel in it, if it does that indicates a diaphragm that is LEAKING.

#123630 - 08/06/06 03:56 PM Re: 5.0 HO OMC stopped.  
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Charles Weber Offline
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Charles Weber  Offline
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Ankeny, Iowa
 Quote:
Originally posted by Frantically Relaxing:
I give 4 to 1 odds it's the fuel pump. Too many dead giveaways. First is that it will idle, but not run. The clincher for me was when you filled the tank it "ran with no problems".

IMO your pump's diaphragm has stretched. It's still capable of pumping, but only slightly. And as it gets warmer, it just gets worse. This is why a cool-down period will help for a moment. Also, with a full tank of gas the pump is basically primed, and the weak diaphragm can push fuel to the carb sufficiently. With 1/4 tank of gas, the pump must work harder to PULL the fuel also.

Your marinized fuel pump should have a clear tube running from it to the carb. This tube should NOT have fuel in it, if it does that indicates a diaphragm that is LEAKING.
I definitely like your odds. \:\)
I removed the old fuel pump today and will be ordering a new one tomorrow. The clear plastic tube did not appear to have any gas in it although I didn't pay real close attention. Next week-end, I will install the new one and hopefully live happily ever after.
Thanks for all the help and encouragement. I'll post my results after the new pump is installed.


Charles
1993 Chris Craft 197 Concept, 5.0 OMC Cobra Drive
1986 Weere's 20' Sportsman (Pontoon), 40hp Evinrude
#123631 - 08/14/06 08:57 PM Re: 5.0 HO OMC stopped.  
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Charles Weber Offline
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Charles Weber  Offline
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Ankeny, Iowa
\:\) \:D :p
About 2 weeks ago I posted about my 5.0 HO OMC stopping and then not running right after restarting.
You people gave me a lot of suggestions and I do appreciate that, but.....
The support was probably what I appreciated the most. Many of you offered suggestions and that helped me keep from feeling alone with my problem.
The solution was the new fuel pump.
The boat runs great again. \:\)
On top of that, all my fuel system that I have access to has had a thorough inspection and maintenance. Fuel filter replaced, carb inlet screen checked, (It was clean), fuel checked for water, fuel lines checked for collapsing, tank vent checked for being open, all fittings tight.
With any luck, I am ready for another 14 seasons of trouble free boating.

THANKS a bunch.

Note: This is reposted from another thread I started. I thought a new thread would be more manageable, but didn't take into consideration anyone following this thread that might want to know the outcome.


Charles
1993 Chris Craft 197 Concept, 5.0 OMC Cobra Drive
1986 Weere's 20' Sportsman (Pontoon), 40hp Evinrude
#320741 - 06/13/07 05:00 PM Re: 5.0 HO OMC stopped. AGAIN! [Re: Charles Weber]  
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Charles Weber Offline
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Charles Weber  Offline
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Ankeny, Iowa
It turns out that my fuel pump fix was not permanent.
The engine did the same thing again this year on two different occasions.
But, this time about the only thing left to check was the fuel pickup in the tank. I had not done this because I thought it was going to require tearing out part of the interior of the boat.
It turns out that there is an access panel that isn't easy to find, but it did let me get to the inlet.
As some had suggested and I had suspicioned, the screen was 3/4 restricted with what almost looked like sawdust. Probably something from when the boat was manufactured.
Anyway, the screen is now cleaned, the boat is running great.
I can only guess that the new fuel pump was able to get more gas through the restricted inlet and this year with more use, it became more restricted.


Charles
1993 Chris Craft 197 Concept, 5.0 OMC Cobra Drive
1986 Weere's 20' Sportsman (Pontoon), 40hp Evinrude
#320749 - 06/13/07 06:04 PM Re: 5.0 HO OMC stopped. AGAIN! [Re: Charles Weber]  
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Jack T Offline
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Southern California
Good news is always my favorite. Thanks for getting back to us.


Have a great day of boating
2012 Monterey 224 FS,
300 HP Volvo Penta with catalytic converters


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